Long Toe / Low Heel Xray - Long toe low heel and other stuff.

Owner here Just looking to talk about my horse of course. But more so to see if you all can explain a few things to me on these xrays. Yes my farrier, Vet and I all talked about this and have a good plan for him.

Horse is an 11 y/o grade gaited back yard pleasure/trail horse with lotsa little problems. Xrays were taken in November when he was barefoot (he was on a hiatus after colic etc etc)

He is now in an aluminum navicular eggbar and plans are to change him to a simpler aluminum eggbar shoe that will still wedge him up with out the stair step of the navicular shoe. My farrier went with the aluminum wedge shoe first and foremost to get his heels up, let him grow some sole and yes his toe was also brought back. The navic shoe was what was on the truck that day LOL. But it fit the purpose and the foot.

The other reason he did this was the horse just plain seemed uncomfortable, a little broken back at HPA, would stand with his front feet forward of verticle. Conformationally, he is a little straight in the shoulder and is a little back at the knee. And yes he was pink in the white line at the toe area - which was another worrisome finding. And that pinkness also supports the long toe low heel I think this xray shows. All of this fits what Mr Aalder brought up in his seminar on this syndrome - especially the fact that the first thing we all noticed as the shoes went on was his back come up and the dip in front of his SI went away.

Needless to say the horse is much more comfortable and moving better with this set up.


Below is the left front:

Questions:

Do you consider this an average sole depth?

DO you feel the toes were a little long?

That diffuse white below and behind the coffin bone - is that the sidebone of the lateral cartilages that are seen in the next xray?

Wow, those xrays are so clear. Wish they all came out like that.

And here is the right front - Did I forget to mention he is also base narrow?

The plot thickens eh?


Question: With the lateral side bone and offset problem in this picture (look at top of P1), would you recommend any lateral support?

Um, HELL NO! Lateral is already overloaded AND P3 is offset laterally. It makes no sense at all to add leverage to that situation.

Ooooooo Yea!!!!! Reply buttons are back!

Tell me more Tom. I did not see the offsett on P3 till you mentioned it. Is his medial lateral trim off or is this just because of the offset at P1? and that he is base narrow?

Would you do anything to the balance or would just making sure he has full roller (I hope I got that term right) be sufficient?

ANd here is his left hind:

I wouldn't do anything or make a determination about M/L balance without having the feet in my hands and doing a gait analysis for dynamic balance assessment. I'm too stupid to follow any static balance protocol and get results. I need to see how the horse is loading and unloading its skeleton and correlate that with what's on the x-rays.

Usually I do it the other way around. I make an assessment based on taking a history and observing the horse in motion, and then ask for x-rays to confirm it.

Thanks again Tom. He might just be leaning for sure.

He does like to move and "is what he is" but videos are never really detailed enough for the kind of consideration a farrier would have to give a foot. You are right about that.

He is on Adequan.

Standard disclaimers apply.......

The sidebone may be causing inflammation and discomfort. Overall, the joint spacing seems fairly uniform though I get the impression that there is some osteophyte formation occuring as well as some non-articular exotosis(and in one view, perhaps articular exotosis) forming. The toes do appear a bit long, the heels are somewhat run forward and the sole depth appears adequate. I prefer to add/use a 1/2 round shoe(often in a bar shoe configuration) amended to what I consider a correct trim which includes getting the toe and heels pulled back and setting the breakover well back off the toe while providing support to the back of the foot to a line dropped vertically from the bulbs to the ground and if appropriate, wedges to align the phalanges and enhance turnover. If the horse is non-reactive to hoof testers over the frog and bars, then I will often add supplemental polymeric support to the package. For some horses, the addition of a No Vibe rim pad(ie: http://www.monettafarrier.com/pads-no-vibe.html or an Impak rim pad or the like(ie:http://www.castleplastics.com/hoofprints.htm seems to help too.

Rick,

I love it when you use big words.

So "balance" is more than Duckett's dot (which doesn't consider dynamic variables)? at least in terms of m/l balance?

Have your farrier build and fit a Sidebone shoe. It usually helps with these and it is a realistic approach that will allow you to still trail ride your horse without having a bunch of shoe hanging out the back (that can get ripped off) as someone suggested.

Duckett's dot is an external reference to an internal constant mechanical center. Does the center of an axle consider caster and camber?

I'm not seeing the long toe / low heel. Do you have pics of the feet?

LT / LH is generally associated with long sloping pasterns. Yours look like a horse with upright pasterns?

Boy, I really appreciate all the feed back. You all really do offer a lot of the same perspectives as my farrier & his assistant. I always learn so much from them and they do not hesitate to tell me what they feel is best for him.

The barefoot pictures represent his condition after 18 months out of work ( $$ issues and health problems). All better now and he is under saddle in shoes and still has issues but is being worked long, slow and low as we can get him. I have a very balanced son of a fine farrier bringing him back to tack for this ole lady. I am so pleased.

The more you all made me look the more I see that the xrays are skewed cause he really stood poorly on the blocks (he was a wiggling PIA that day). Like on the right front where he looks offset - Well - I did not notice till this post that the medial portion of his foot is off the block. Same thing on the left front, the hind portion of his foot is off the block.

LT/LH - yes he is as upright in his pasterns to the same degree as his shoulders. And yes, my farrier felt at most his toes were "just a little bit long" but nothing worisome. What was worrisome was combining that little bit of long toe trim with the upright shoulder/pasterns and his back at the knee issue. All are slight issues, but in our discussions we/they felt they were adding up to him standing with his feet forward of plum and the bruising on the white line (he was also striking a little toe first at the time0. But most significantly, he was ventroflexing at his back causing more issues in his hinds - in particular his Sacral Iliac. All this was going on with him being a pasture pet.

I googled the sidebone shoes - and found this: http://www.summitforge.co.uk/sidebone.html Pretty interesting. Not sure how to incorporate that into what we are doing now. Need a new thred for that fot f sure.

The 1/2 rounds - Yes, my farrier is making sure all the shoes have "all around" ease of breakover for the joint issues. ANd the eggbar he now has offers good full heel support. When the wear is checked he is breaking over dead center. When he walks he is putting the fronts down flat or slightly heel first. ANd his base narrow issue is less noticable in his current shoes. But when asked to gait, or even in a plan walk, he is three tracking at times. We feel this is SI/stiffle issues (he has had them since day one). He drops his right hip and short strides the right hind.

See - lotsa little things. Here is an old video of a lesson from a couple of years ago (sorry bout the music): You can see he is affable and my balance (poor) irritates him. He is doing a medium working walk, and the lesson was to flex him slowly right then left as he moved forward in this brisk walk. He slips into his gait on the later part of the video. He was in plain keg shoes then. On his good days - he would give 16 inches of overstride in gait in kegs. SO he is pretty useable "with considerations." And also are pics from when he was 5, shows the dropped right hip and shoulder assemmetry etc etc/ He is very farrier'sdream RIGHT?

As a five year old in kegs:


Five Year Old


Gotta look fr the more recent pics.

Upright pasterns is very much different than lt/lh. Just as a club foot is different. I'm on my phone so can't type. Maybe tonight I can explain the differences in more depth. Or maybe another farrier will jump in before then.

Eric Russell

So, is he now sound? If not, where has the vet determined him to be lame? Which structures are currently causing him issues? I am not convinced that a LT/LH is relative to his current condition.

First, I got to say he has had back problems from the get go - a cold backed horse, hard to gait and a head tosser at times, and an almost bucking like heavy on the fore canter. He does best with chiro and slow low flexing warm ups and rides. But in gait, he tends to have a hard time with balance and finding a comfort zone. Before the hiatus, he did become what I would consider consistant and comfortable in his slow gait and had a more rolling canter.

Other than the pink at the toe in his white line, his feet have not yelled "help me."

The Vet, Farrier & Chiro are absolutely sure there are back problems and SI issues (and of course the left hind ringbone) all of which improved with the shoeing. It shows in the immediate improvement in stance (back posture, visual reduction of the dip-n-hump at SI) and the fores are more perpendicular vs out in front when on the concrete. He will still have days where he drops the right hip (at liberty or under saddle) and 3 tracks with his hip offset to the left. Also, now and then the hinds (either one) will "give" in pain when turned o a very tight circle.

So back and SI issues are still there to a degree. ANd most likely always will need to be managed. FOr sure his back improved with the farriery. ANd no more pink in the white line at the toes on his fores.

ANd being a worried nellie owner, the questions in my head now, specially after all that I have been given here to think about are these: is he just better cause he is "in shoes" or is he better because of the slight wedge in his current shoe? I wonder will this slight wedge cause a problem if all he is is "upright"?

I am sure we will soon find out. He is now 2 1/2 cycles with this type shoe. And we will be going to an eggbar wedge aluminum this cycle. If my farrier is OK with it - I will get some pics of the next shoeing.

Just want to add IMO if this heel was properly on the block in the Xray, the long toe issue would have been more apparant. And it may just be the pressure/forces of the relatively long toe causing the pink at the white line? I dunno.

We will xray again next November or so and will have time to practiv this block standing stuff LOL.

I'd imagine with this conformation you have underun heels. The upright pasterns transfers the weight forward in the foot slightly . The heels don't crush they just like to run forward.