First, Thanks for your service, Steve. I agree with your above statement, but I am beyond "very sour" about folks who work the system--I'm downright furious and fed-up.
Why are they shut down? Are they old and non-productive? Or just not able to comply with the EPA regs to reduce TOXIC emissions? Poor health is costly in the long run. Fracking has begun in Ohio. I don't want it. Too much of a potential disaster of poisoning the water--clean water is by far our most precious resource
David, I don't disagree that we need renewable energy, I think it is a good idea. Obama give all this money to companies to develop solar, wind etc. Most of them are out of business shortly after getting the money.
Decreased demand for coal by power plants, because they are being shut down. One of the mines was just a couple years old. Mines don't really produce a lot of toxic emissions. Bush actually implemented some legislation for scrubbers on coal fired plants. Coal fired plants just got done complying with these requirements and then the requirements get tightened more. The cost of technology to meet the new requirement set by the current admin is crippling the industry.There are 4 older coal fired plants within a 70 mile radius of me, people seem to be healthy. We have a clean coal powered plant that was just built about 40 miles from my house. It produces 0 emissions but at a cost of 14 billion dollars. It is going to have a big effect on electric bills when it becomes fully operational. They have been fracking in Illinois for 60 years, there water still seems to be fine.
Yes, got ahead of myself there. I suppose as long as coal dust and black lung affects only those directly exposed, it shouldn't matter to the rest of us? But you're right, air-borne particles/toxins are not the biggest pollutants coming from the mines, surface contamination and water pollution from run-off on the other hand.... I'm sure the folks in Wyoming are relieved to hear that: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=epa-finds-fracking-compound-wyoming-aquifer EPA Finds Fracking Compound in Wyoming Aquifer The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency finds fracking compounds in environmental monitoring wells ByAbrahm LustgartenandProPublica 13 inShare WATER POLLUTION: EPA monitoring wells have detected compounds used in fracking in a Wyoming aquifer.Image: USGS As the country awaits results from a nationwide safety study on the natural gas drilling process of fracking, a separate government investigation into contamination in a place where residents have long complained that drilling fouled their water has turned up alarming levels of underground pollution. A pair of environmental monitoring wells drilled deep into an aquifer in Pavillion, Wyo., contain high levels of cancer-causing compounds and at least one chemical commonly used in hydraulic fracturing, according to new water test results released yesterday by the Environmental Protection Agency.
Your chances of exposure to coal dust are pretty slim unless your in a mine and then they are still pretty small. They keep the coal wet, because coal dust is an extremely flammable and highly explosive substance. The coal in the pic below will be leveled out, packed down and then watered to reduce dust and the potential of fire or explosion because it is open to oxygen. As to black lung it is very uncommon these days because of legislation already put in place. http://www.umwa.org/?q=content/black-lung As far as runoff, legislation is already in place to insure proper reclamation and there are regulations for maintaining pit dewatering systems which are inspected quarterly by MSHA. Here's a couple of pics from my travels today the first is of a mine that was run by Peabody and was one of the largest mines in Indiana, it shut down about ten or fifteen years ago. Note the fisherman on the lake, the lake is the remainder of the pit when they quit production. The second is runoff of a mine from around the 1930's that was not properly reclaimed. Which one do you think is contributing more to contamination. Come on Denise you can do better than that. Why 3rd hand info, why not go to the source. http://www.epa.gov/region8/superfund/wy/pavillion/EPA_ReportOnPavillion_Dec-8-2011.pdf It appears that the problem was more the drilling depths of domestic wells and the gas wells being to close together causing contamination. Most fracking happens a lot deeper than it did in the location in question. Also faulty casing and sealing procedures may have played a part in both domestic and production wells. They also could not conclude if some of the chemicals were from the fracking procedure or there own drilling of test wells. They also found a chemical in the water tert-butyl hydroperoxide, which by past drilling records and MSDS sheets was never used in the wind river aquifer. It would be interesting to hear Jack Evers comments on this subject because he was in this business and lives in that location. My point is Denise do you like the lights in your house, hot water to take a shower and gas to drive around in your car. If so, some evils will have to be committed upon the environment until a better alternative becomes economically viable.
I also on one hand feel sorry for those people affected in Wyoming but on the other, why were they stupid enough to drink or come into contact with water that comes out dirty and smelling of chemicals. I don't even drink the water out of my own house.
Thanks again to folks for taking part in the process, I have not read all of this but I think we have gotten off on a tangent. regards Ray
Justin, Your photo of the runoff from the 1930 mine is precisely why strong environmental regulations (imposed by an enviromentally-friendly governing body) need to be in place before the damage occurs. Lack of regulation allowed those companies to get in, rape the land, reap the profits and get out, leaving behind the devastation and having no responsibility for clean-up. It happened all the time, in all kinds of industries, prior to EPA. Gets back to greed, coupled with lack of concern for the environment, along with not fully understanding the impact. Imposing stricter standards on emissions of power plants is costly, yes, but mercury/sulfer etc. in the environment generated at these coal burning plants has got be controlled. People are getting stupider and stupider all the time, the polluted environment is playing a role. Fracking worries me, for one (even you said it): And two, What about disposal of the waste fracturing fluid--what's going to happen in the event of a strong earthquake? Eastern Ohio has had more earthquakes recently, possibly in part due to waste disposal wells (to dispose of the hydraulic fracturing fluid) being drilled there http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=ohio-earthquake-likely-caused-by-fracking A little bit of cement containing those fluids would probably be no match for a strong earthquake. Yes, too much uncertainty. And you really believe the drilling companies are totally honest and up-front with what is in the fracturing fluids?? Ray, not meaning to take the thread off-topic but one of the Romney promises was to come in to Ohio and rape the land under the guise of creating jobs/providing energy for our thirsty nation. You can bet I voted against him (not so much that Obama was much better, just the lesser of two evils). Gets back to greed, coupled with lack of concern for the environment, along with not fully understanding the impact.
Seeing how spirited this got, yet remained civil, I wish I had posted something a month ago, all that money spent by the parties , some could have been mine and Andres, and then I could let David buy me a stout! We might have had states by...red...blue and according to the FF.. Again, thanks to all for taking part in citizenship of the USA and the forums, and as a reminder , it s a daily thing, not just every four years Ray
And I would have had a toast to that, even though I'm not a drinker. (O'Doul's suffices) Anyone who has strong feelings about paying down the debt can contribute here: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/pd/gift/gift.htm (and no, this is not Fran Jurga's site) . Too bad some of that money spent on the campaign wasn't used productively.
I just got back from Vacation and didn't learn of the DISASTER, Hussein Obama was relected until Thursday. Yea, it's true many in Europe like Hussein, but I don't understand why any one would like a man who got a country soooooooooooooooooooooooooo far in debt, lied to the people after he got in. But like Michael Savage said - And that was the best the Repubs could come up with? I never voted for Hussein, but I guess the smooth talker pulled the wool over enough voter's eyes, so now they will get what they wanted and the rest of us will pay for it.
Were there two people? There was a mate of that Trump chap, Roomey or something, who I thought the American media had wheeled out to make Mr Obama look good. He looked like a proper Johnnie Come Lately.
Actually it was kind of a trick, that water contains iron which is why it is orange. Iron occurs naturally in our water table around here, water just like the pic runs right out of the side of the hill on my property. The creek that runs thru my property is named Ore Branch because of the high concentrations of iron in the area, if rainfall is low the creek will turn a slight orange, not quite as bad as the picture though. We have city water throughout our county because of the iron content in the ground water. Yet if you go to my in-laws farm they have some of the best spring water around. My point is someone sees a picture of some nasty looking water and automatically goes to blaming destruction of the environment, when in fact it was actually cause by the environment itself. I agree with you Denise everything needs to be done responsibly. It's funny that most of the old mines around here are now state forest where people go hunt, fish, camp, and ride there horses. Some have been remined for the deeper seam of coal, and have been properly reclaimed. The government is also putting back the wetlands after people spent countless hours drying them up to make productive farm land out of them. No they are being flooded again to help the environment, I wonder why cases resulting in death from the west nile virus are on the rise. Do you know what a scrubber is Denise? Bush mandated that by 2010 all coal fired plants had to have scrubber systems installed. A republican helping the environment who would have thought it. They proved that on Tuesday!! Improper use of anything is dangerous. Whats going to happen if a tornado comes or a hurricane or a fire, what if ? Do you know what an MSDS sheet is? Funny the only one I heard talking about rape was Murdock, which they should string him up for.
Trick or not, pollution from coal mining/coal burning plants is real and is not a joke. http://www.miningpollution.killbrain.com/pictures~mining~pollution.aspx (besides, you were the one who stated the the "facts" of the photo--bad on you for misrepresenting the facts-thought you could be trusted--hmmmph) Glad we agree on something! Yes, and scrubbers were an improvement for sulpher removal, but better technology to remove even more pollutants, ie heavy metals, now exists. In addition, power plants were strangely exempt from standards of the Clean Air Mercury rule passed under Bush. Bush....hmmm. I hope you are not inferring he was a great President .... and this photo is no trick Actually, yes. I worked at a chemical company in the 70s and 80s, a pharmaceutical company in the 80s, and a fiberglass product manufacturing company in the 90s. You obviously missed my point-drilling companies did not have to comply with the Clean Water Act (the Halliburton Loophole). A handful of states have enacted their own disclosure regs--but some states do not not even require disclosure of "trade secret" proprietary ingredients to the regulatory agencies. If they pumped in toxic chemicals, they are not going to admit it...
I did not serve during the Vietnam years as things were slowing winding down when I was 18. I did hear something today that really disturbed me tho...that our Military was NOT allowed to Vote? Is that a common thing or what??? Floored to say the least!!
