these are our observations on horses in several disciplines although Dinger did a controlled study on horses in the 90s , there is a very good thread from a couple of years ago on horseshoes where i put forward my experiences on the subject
Chris, I went to horseshoes and quickly scanned posts under your name, but it was a little to jumbled for me, ,Did Dinger publish that study somewhere, I d like to see it? Thanks Ray
the flex in these shoes at the toe allows the heel to raise a bit when placed on an object under one heel on a hard surface. I would think that this would work fo a horse walking in rock in a river bottom or such, but in a soft arena or jumping course, I don't think much flex would occur as the ground surface would buffer the effect. The question I have is whether flexibility or rigidity is best for the heel area.
Do you think? If you follow that theory a horse would not be able to move in soft ground. For every force there is an equal and opposite force.
This is an interesting aspect I agree. It was what I meant when I said the vidio impressed me more than i thought it would. I wonder if there is collateral lig damage in horses that are blocked in at the heels.
Bill, there have been a # of shoes that"flex", move, have memory etc. .I held and twisted the razers, in all honesty, most full swedge standardbred machiners have about the same "flex" to me and if heated loose the ability to "flex". I think that a horses hoof moves under weight and relief of weight. i guess i m saying that i think the hoof "flexes " also . That is why i m interested in reading the stuff that Chris noted. Ray
I agree about opposite and equal forces, wondering about how much soft footing would form to the hoof and not cause the foot to flex. The question as to wether or how much the hoof should flex still has me thinking.
Ok, about the possible collateral ligament tears. I started back with an old client that went astray so we should say. I am almost certain one of the guys she used might have used them razors? I don't know for sure but he is the only guy pushing them I know. MRI showed the tear over ayear ago, but HPA on one foot was so far out that it is going to be a slow process and study.. they have spend over $20,000 on this horse and they are about done they feel...
Maybe it is pointed for other reasons, but this ain't one of them. You will never see a horses hind toe ding in the ground in any slow-motion video of horses performing at speed. And when travelling at speed, once the foot is planted in the stance phase, it isn't anatomically possible for the horse to dig it's hind toe into the ground due to the reciprocal apparatus of the hind limb.
I think there is some disagreement on this point. Wouldn't that depend, at least in part, on the surface on which the horse is performing? And, at what stage of movement/propulsion the horse is exhibiting? Ah, but what occurs as the forward motion continues through the stance phase and as 'breakover' occurs and propulsion comes in to play? Or, as Randy Luikhart might observe, the horse needs to be able to establish 'purchase' with the hind hooves in order to propel itself forward. Does the hind hoof come off the ground flat or is there first, heel lift to at least some degree. If there is first heel lift, then what happens at the toe? If it remains on the ground as retraction occurs, and then provides force into/against the ground to cause propulsion, is it unreasonable to conclude that the more spade shaped configuration of the hind foot is more conducive to that action than is the rounder shape of the front hooves which is more conducive to weight bearing? Especially since a primary function of the front limbs and hooves is to keep the horse's nose out of the dirt?
where's Scott's Ontrack slow motion video when you need it. This is not intended to be a commercial. Runners, TBs & AQHAs dig very deep with their toes, front and hind, the first 3-4 strides out of the gate. Arabs always looked like they were jumping out of the gate.
I would say that Randy might just about fall out of his chair when somebody like Jeffery Thomason who has physically measured the propulsive forces in vivo and can show that maximum thrust in the hind stride happens a millisecond before the foot is unloaded and the direction of that thrust is horizontal and than any vertical "thrust" beyond what is necessary to support the moving mass from falling due to gravity would be wasted energy. I was there, and Randy didn't like it very much, but he brought a wet noodle to a gun fight.
No disagreement from me on that assertion. But, you changed the subject. Horses do "jump" with all 4 feet off the line during rapid acceleration, but once they have established forward momentum (travelling at speed) things are different due to how momentum interacts with gravity. The faster you go, the LESS traction you need to keep going.
When travelling at speed (where the front feet are no longer supplying propulsion) the narrower hind toe has less drag and due to it's pointed shape is easier to extract from deep ground. It creates drag if it remains on the ground after the suspensories have used up their kinetic energy. No load, no propulsion. If it ain't pushing, it's dragging. Better to get it out of the dirt ASAP after peak thrust. How much more horizontal "thrust" 1/4 cup of dirt going to make? Because that is ALL that you can add by turning the toe down into the dirt once the horse has established momentum. AND you WAST a lot of muscle energy turning that toe down (if it was possible). But I'll throw something else out at you. Since when is a "fast" track a soft deep track? Digging in and going fast are mutually exclusive in just about anything that involves travelling at speed. Ever see a horse lift itself off it's hind heels when trying presumably to rotate it's toes into pavement to get "purchase" while trotting? See above.
Thrust on the Y axis is only necessary to overcome G momentum. Too much Y thrust and you're just wasting energy jumping up and falling down like a Pogo stick - though they seem to love that sort of thing in dressage.
My thoughts and I stress my thoughts the action of the hind limb is gait specific. We all know by now the hind limb is on the opposite way round to the front. Why is the hind a different shape is that the question? The front and the hind limbs have differing primary functions. crudely as has been stated weight carrying and propulsion. The secondary functions that occur in the change of direction while weight carrying or propelling may hold the key to hoof shape and form. The position the hoof is placed in relationship to the directional change. The front foot uses the aduction and abduction of the scapular humeral joint and the humeral radial joint, It absorbs the directional change by altering its foot fall and breaking over the toe hopefully with little resistance from a uniform radius at the toe. Anticipating the directional change, the hind limb is placed under the horse, relative to the directional change and then levers the horse over.
Good points David. Also, consider that direction changes also involve momentum changes and require more traction to hold the ground in turns at speed compared to holding the ground while travelling in a straight line at speed. Some race tracks have banked turns . . .
