predilection for side clips

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by AnthonyLawrence, Oct 4, 2013.

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    AnthonyLawrence Active Member

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    In my corner if the sandpile, just about every jumping or dressage horse I see is shod with side clips on the fronts. I gather its not peculiar to my area as others have mentioned the same thing.

    It seems guys are just defaulting to side clips as a matter of course whether they are needed or not. Some guys do not use toe clips.... ever.

    I'll most certainly use them if they going to help me achieve what I'm trying to do, but if I have just a normal healthy well shaped hoof they just get an ordinary toe clip. I see them as temporary and once I've got the hoof where I want it, it goes back to an ordinary toe clip.

    That's all , but my concern is that folks are now toe clips as something out of the ordinary or something only hacks nail on.

    WTF?

    Why is this happening?
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    david a hall Moderator

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    Alot of it is fashion, and easier to fit But in a slight defence and it is only slight, a lot of jumpers and dressage horses are over weight and unless you rape the dorsal wall they look long. It is a different matter to say did the trimming process make them look long or the 30lbs of concentrate a day in the name of improving its top line!!! I like you Anthony dont use many.
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    gary evans old and slow

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    I see a lot of it in my area too and I've always felt that it's a lazy option in that you don't have to fit the toe so you can whack 'em on quicker and fit more in a day, which can be justified by saying 'I'm bringing the point of breakover back'.

    Many of the horses that I see that have had quarter clipped fronts on for a while seem to be developing front feet that are shaped more like back feet.

    Of all the horses that I shoe, only three have quarter clips on the front.
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    AnthonyLawrence Active Member

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    Like this eh Gary?

    [IMG]
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    gary evans old and slow

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    Yep, just like that.
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    Mikel Dawson Active Member

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    When I moved to Denmark, everything was toe clipped. I had to work like hell to get my supplier to get shoes with out clips. I put a lot of shoes on with no clips. I don't think I loose any more shoes than the guys who use clips all the time.
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    Tom Bloomer Well-Known Member

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    IME when it comes to farriery, clips in and of themselves are a highly over rated variable.

    I don't blame dishing in the toe on toe clips. even though I've pulled plenty of shoes off of dished toe feet that were shod with toe clips. I wouldn't assume that a toe clip would be the only modification necessary to how a foot is trimmed and shod to change how the foot morphs over time.

    The perimeter of the foot in the image is blown out all the way around and the bars are folding over onto the sole. These conditions do not result from clip placement nor can they be affected by clip placement. They are the result of the foot collapsing under a load. Clips don't stop gravity and leverage.

    It could be the foot pictured lives in a wet environment, or the horse is going too long between shoeing appointments, or the horn is too weak to stand up to the weight of the horse, or the shoe placement is creating GRF leverage that is dragging the whole footprint forward, or a combination of all the above. Bottom line, if you don't (or can't) change the conditions that are creating the distortion and just switch from side clips to toe clips while keeping everything else exactly the same, the foot is going to continue doing exactly what it is doing - collapsing under a load.
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    Bill Adams Active Member

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    I haven't put toe clips on a horse for about 15 years or so. I apply very few clips at all and when I do I draw them myself, other than the "free samples" at clinics.
    As to whacking them on and doing a couple extra in the day, this is something I have never done, even if I had wanted to, It's the whole slow and fat thing.
    One of the reasons, actually the only reason, that I ever tell someone I'm bringing the breakover back, is because I am.
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    slowshoe Member

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    Anthony, where are you located? Toe clips are hardly seen here in the US. Some people see it as odd, some think they are only for draft horses. I've shod horses with toe clips quite a bit, but one owner was concerned her horse looked like a draft horse. She wasn't happy, she was trying to sell it. In fact most major brands of shoes here in the US, its hard to find them toe clipped. Ive never used a pre-toe clipped shoe unless it was on a draft horse, you just don't see them here in my area.

    And side clips are hardly ever applied correctly. OUt of the box, shaped clips sticking straight up then hammered down on the well. Just makes me want to slap the farrier around a little. And THAT is the cause of the distortion in the foot you showed.

    A few benefits to side clips.
    You can often get away with 4 nails on horses you could not 4 nail with no clips or toe clips.
    On an uncooperative horse you are less likely to have the shoe move while nailing it up.
    ^^^^^ I think that's the reason some farriers use all clipped shoes. They bang it on and it wont move when you drive nails in.
    Side clips when fitted properly will snap right it and you can put a sore horses foot down without any nails.

    But they have lots of drawbacks and in the interests of the horse the fitting process can be more complicated than some farriers are willing to do.
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    AnthonyLawrence Active Member

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    Slowshoe I'm in Qld Aus.

    As far as machine made shoes go, it is impossible to buy unclipped shoes in Australia and NZ... Kercks, Vulcans, Malaysians, St Croix, Mustads, whatever... all clipped, either toe or side. If you want an unclipped shoe you have to make them yourself or knock them off the ready mades. But even the Guys hand making everything pull side clips as a matter of course.

    Just the way it is here bud, right or wrong, clips are just du rigeur.

    Tom, I don't really want to focus on THAT foot in the image, my point and as Gary confirms, the distortion is common. The further point I'm making is that down here there is no real thought process as to whether to no clip/toe clip/side clip, everything just gets side clips.

    Have a look at Smitty's work, mostly toe clips, some side.

    The question probably doesn't apply much in North America, but certainly for the rest of us.
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    travis dupree reed Active Member

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    ...anthony will you allow us to follow this shoeing for the next sseveral cycles to see how or if the foot transforms over a diff shoeing.
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    AnthonyLawrence Active Member

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    Oh Travis, it's not one of mine, just one I saw on Youtube I pulled the image off.

    But a good idea.... next time I get one of these, I'll photo and do a history...

    Actually... just thinking... I've got one in side clips myself at the moment while I sort a few things out AND it's starting to look a little cramped in the toe quarters. If I remember I'll do that one because next shoeing will get toe clips or no clips.
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    AnthonyLawrence Active Member

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    travis dupree reed Active Member

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    Anthony it would be intresting if we all could show a before we start pic and follow it a few cycles whether it be going from toe clip to sides or side clips to toe..im being just honest when I say I only toe clip ponys because I dont feel I do toe clips well enough and truthfully I dont like many toe clip feet at five weeks on alot of feet..I find its a breed thing as I do not like the set up on a ottb due to I find most that come to me have weak thin feet..warmbloods I find do well Iin in toe clips..I do agree 100% some shoe with no plan and I see that on both sides of the coin..some side clip just because and some toe clip just because. .no matter what a farrier does I feel he should be able to explain why he did what he did and what his plan is down the road..imho we all should be shoeing with a plan of a year out if not we are just shoeing feet and not the horse.. I aint hating on toe clips I just dont do them to my satisfactory..ive never meet or do I know jeff crane but he woukd post from time to time on a few sites and imo he does both clip sides and toes very good..I feel looking at his work he is pretty damn well rounded farrier and chooses his set up extremely well..he is what I consider pretty damn talented ..
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    travis dupree reed Active Member

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    Intresting info being givin in the video but good lord he makes it as interesting as a catholic funeral. .like watching paint dry
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    Jack Evers Active Member

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    I've asked a number of farriers why toe clips in front, quarters behind or the converse of quarters on both ends. Few have had a reason. Folks who seldom clip (like me) and do quarters in front often say "I figure if they need clips, they may as well have two" Guess that's OK, it's a temporary thing in these cases anyhow. Only one to give me a reason for a toe clip in front said they were apt to pull a shoe hitting a rail and the toe clip helped. I don't have any real opinion, Other than some broken coffin bones I've never had a horse in clips long enough to see much effect on hoof geometry and while the broken coffin bone feet got smaller, I don't know if that was from the clips or the lameness. Guess I'll blunder along until I see a reason to change.
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    AnthonyLawrence Active Member

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    One stable I'm doing... 35 or 40 horses, virtually every horse was in side clips with rockered toes, to counter the toes running forward when I took over.

    Four months later there are only two left with side clips and/or enhanced breakover.. several on/off unsound. The rest just toe clipped now with no running forward problems at all, with only one still with soundness issues.

    I might suck on the anvil, but I think I'm ok on the foot... IOW it's the trim that is more important than this clip or that clip or this shoe or that shoe.... IMO.

    But still think side clips are not appropriate on ceratin types of feet.

    $0.02
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    Tom Bloomer Well-Known Member

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    Never heard of sucking on the anvil before today. Does that improve your forging? :whistle:
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    Michael Allen Champion spokesman for UK toolmaker!

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    I think environment plays a big part. A wet environment and going to long between apts, tend to end up with run out crap feet. I live in a dry area feet just seem to hold together better.

    Any more i dont clip many front feet if the horse has no added traction. I clip the hinds on almost everything. toe and quarter

    disclamer: durring fly season i do clip most my fronts
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    travis dupree reed Active Member

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    I clip 90% of my work no matter if dide..quarter..or toe cliped..the only thing I dont clip would be pasture plugs..I have always felt justified in why I do clip the ones I do..but its clear the reason I clip may not be justified in others opinion. . But here are the reasons why... most are in the wash rack two times a day and some of those do get soft..alot get drill and tapped and I myself never do that without clips due to the possible shearing factor..often if its a 0 or below I will use two nails one on each side..larger size I use 4 nails two on each side..academy ponys are often used two to three lessons a day in heavy sand felt mix footing and done on 4 week to 5 week cycle. .I have seen feet get chewed up pretty fast on non cliped shoes with 6 to 8 nails.. the whole break over enhancing thing is not a factor and not sure what side clips has to do with that..farriers can rocker ..roll toe..set back or how ever..I do think its a tall order to set clip cold ..I feel a good side clip shoe should pop on and hold there with no nails and not fall off..I know most feel a clip should be flush imbedded in the wall but I only want the base set in the wall about half up..Its also common for me to grind a clip in half.. I pull my toe clips and use clip shoes for the others..I do have a few horses to get done in a day..I dont do 10 like smitty and them but like most I have alot of ground to cover..

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