what s wrong with the nail holes and shoe shapes

That makes absolutely no sense to me. What is "flexing internally" that toe nails would restrict? The internal part of the hoof is all soft structure, except for the bones, which don't flex at all.

Regards

Did you have a lot of cracks and flair showing up in the horses you do Bill.

Doesn't make sense to me either, Rick. That's what I got from reading the article and talking to Mr. Kenny. As a theory, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility though. I've heard a lot of things in this business that don't make a lick of sense, but they work.

Through the years I a;ways fought flair and cracks. About the time I started skipping the toe nails, I was concentrating on getting the foot to conform to a shape I thought it should be for that leg on that horse. Between trimming weird, setting shoes under, behind, extending too far lat or meidial, floating, rolled, widened, sweetened, wedged and just fit funny, I have things under control. That is 'till they lead a new horse up for me to shoe.
I can't say that I have proven anything by doing this thing or that thing. With Kenny's study, the only variable was the nail placement.

Sorry guys, but this nail placement issue is Bollox .
If you get the foot the right shape, you can put the nails anywhere you want.
Get the trim right and the foot will be the same shape six to eight weeks later no matter where you put the nails.

So Gary did you just prove Kenny wrong? Have you read the article and the study? As Rick mentioned in his rebuttal above, "The internal part of the hoof is all soft structure, except for the bones," , we know that the hoof flexes internally, to the point where bones can break and hoofs can crack. Therefore, it seems to follow that the felxability can be restricted. Then, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.
This is not to say that it's not possible to shoe a horse correctly, or eliminate flair and cracks, while using the toe nails. No need to join a movement, buy a certification, or wear a special hat.
In fact you have my permission to use toe nails at your discretion. Go ahead, knock your self out, just don't hit your thumb.

Yeah, right - what do I know. ..
And thanks for your permission, I can move forward in life knowing I have the Bill Adams seal of approval.

Well, then my work is done here....but seriously, what is wrong with my train of thought as to internal flexibility and it's restriction?

Here's the thing bill, I have been a member of this site since its inception, as have you. The big difference is I have posted examples of my work from the start yet you spout rhetoric yet have only posted maybe three pictures of your work which, to be honest, a second year apprentice would not. ..

Well anyway, I'm calling you out bill. I will shoe and horse with nails right at the toe and no further back than the widest part of the foot and I will post pics of the same foot 7 weeks later if you will too.

Whaddayasay?

Can't say fairer than that Gary. My IT department (that would be my 16 year old daughter, Charity) has committed to getting the pictures off my phone and on to here.
Another thing I hate about you Limies; your second year apprentices are so damn good at this.

I hate the fact that most second year apprentices are better than I am too, Bill!

Until the pictures begin flowing, what about this question?

I have no means of measuring the changes in the internal structures of the hoof so I have to rely on empirical observation:
Nails near the toe have no detrimental affect on the shape of the hoof over the shoeing cycle.

For one thing your talking about moving nails from were the foot flexes the least to were it begins to expand and contract the most. How much movement dose this theory have the toe flexing and in what direction ?

Gary ,Bill this is a intresting disushon but lets keep it a debate not a argument its hard to sling mud and keep your own hands clean . Bill you and I talked years ago .you have a good mind and a lot of comin sence but i think your wrong on this one .id bet the changes you are atributing to nail placement have more to do with your shoeing improving then nail placement.but hay ive ben wrong before

You're right Monty and Bill, I apologise for my reference to a second year apprentice, that was out of order.
I'm still willing to do the trial though.

Monty.
The transfer of force or the force between the extensor and ddft may effect the area where the toe nails are placed. This may cause a restriction of flexation that in turn may cause stress, cracks, or deformation of the hoof.
We know that the foot flexes throughout, more in some areas less in others. It's been found (though I can't site a source) that there is more movement of the hoof at the hair line at the bulbs that at the heels of the hoof. We also know that the whole hoof is plastic and can be remodeled for good or bad. To postulate after seeing the results of an 80 horse study that there may be a chance of toe nails having an effect on hoof changes doesn't seem too far fetched to me..
I will now give to you Monty, as I have to Gary, permission, with my blessing, to use the toe nail holes if you wish.

Too late. If Ray won't ban you, erase all your posts and block your access to this site, I'll never come here again. I'll sell all my tools except for nippers and a rasp and only go to the Barefoot sites.

I remember you. Small world.
The changes I'm talking about are those noted in Mr. Kenny's study. All of my prefect work is, of course, the result of my great skill and intellect. I will however beg, borrow, or steal any trick or idea I can get from my betters.

I will now give to you Monty, as I have to Gary, permission, with my blessing, to use the toe nail holes if you wish.[/quote]
Why thank you Bill i was starting to worry