Wedge shoes

lol, I had him trimmed down the last time......... Vet specifically wanted that much foot left and all the retained sole left with it. When the owner decided to leave him barefoot one cycle this little lameness deal seemed to start there. First setting after re-shoeing him, he improved but then gained a good bit of weight and after the second setting pulled a shoe and has been off on that leg. Vet says however he is off on both fronts but you wouldn't know unless you never blocked the one showing the most.

Generally you have to find the one or two vets who are not total ......(swept) and work with them. One multi farrier group in the US actually hired a full time vet so they can use literally their own vet.

So instead of having a baseline and a plan you have a chaos. Not that the owner would follow a plan if there was one . . .

Kim, you should walk away from this one. (note to self - remember to really rub it with the "I told you so" when she is on here crying about how she should have walked away.)

Don't understand you here......... I have been shoeing this horse for a while, and the problems seemed to have started when she tried leaving him barefoot. You keep saying baseline, what you do think I'm missing? As for plan it's to follow the Vet's directive unless I see it going south. He said 3 to 4 week cycle and we are doing the 3 week this first time, because I fear that foot getting out of hand. Right now it's on the Vet, owner knows I'm not on the same page as he.

Kim,

Problems are never the Vets fault as they are omnipotent gods. Problems are never the trainers fault. Problems are never the owners fault. Generally (as you area about to learn) the easiest fall guy (gal) is the farrier. When in doubt fire the farrier.

As soon as any vet except the 2 that I like to use get involved in a case I just consider myself fired and walk away, saves time. If I am called to help a new horse with a lameness issue that need a vet to work with me I explain that I only work with these 2 vets or I decline the engagement.

You don't realize it yet but you are already fired and should exit before not after your reputation is tarnished. Follow the Hippocratic Oath that doctors take and "Do no harm" to the horse. Never ever apply a shoe/trim that you know is wrong. Before Pat Reilly jumps in many times we do not know what is right or best and often a process of trial and error is needed to sort out what a horse will most benefit from. But also often a RX is written for a shoe/trim/pad that will be detrimental to the horse. In that case walk away.

So the horse walked off lame immediately after you pulled the shoes and trimmed the feet and you left it that way?
You pulled the shoes and trimmed the feet and the horse was sound, but you didn't come back again until the horse was lame? How long barefoot before the horse went lame? How long was the horse lame before the owner called you?

A lot of details go into establishing a baseline. A baseline is all the stuff that remains consistent and constant over a shoeing cycle - including the duration of the cycle. If you or the owner or the horse changes more than ONE THING, you no longer have a baseline because you don't KNOW which thing that you changed made things better or worse. Horse got fat/ went barefoot/ changed schedule/ drought/ wet / change in diet / change in work . . .

Since he isn't the one nailing on the shoes and isn't the one coming back in 3/4 weeks to check on the results, how does this get to be "on the vet?"

Have already experienced that with one I had a feeling was headed that way anyway.

I don't have that ability yet. One thing is that I'm too new at this to really be "doubting" the Vet in the owner's eyes.

Well I can't say for sure that this is detrimental to the horse........... It walked off sound, and owner reports is doing better (whether that's her hope or reality I don't know). I know where the horse came from and the issues it's had previously with retained sole and too much hoof left. I know that in the back of my mind I see this foot growing right back to where it was if left this way.

However, what I don't know is if the owner keeps to this short cycle and I keep the foot back at "his measurements" will the horse stay sound. Right now I do not feel I'm harming the horse if the owner cooperates and keeps him on a short schedule. Do I feel it's the best solution, no. If I get fired because the horse goes back downhill and they blame it on me then so be it. I've found out people are going to do and say whatever they want. Even if I were to walk away from this, she could be so inclined to say to everyone it was because I lacked the ability........ same as if she fired me "she was a hack".

No it did not walk off lame....... Went about 1.5 cycles (9 weeks) before coming up tender in the fronts and Vet said likely had a laminitic episode is tender and needs shoes. no Xrays, different Vet. Horse shod walked off fine, went on to Camp Smile for the summer as a lesson horse, came back overweight. ReShod and 10 days later pulls the LF shoe and comes up lame on LF more so when turning to the left. Owner had this new Vet attend the horse and come up with never had a laminitic episode and it's Navicular syndrome. Horse is back down to an acceptable weight and here we are.

Ok I understand that........... I have very few that stay consistent with the shoeing cycle and or care of the animal. So establishing a "good" baseline is next to impossible then.

I'm going to stick to his RX on the shoeing.... If the horse changes for the worst, then he'll come up with another way to approach this, or owner will decide to try my idea or another Vet. I know what your getting at......... The owner can choose to blame the Mechanic for not doing the work right. As I stated before while I don't agree with this RX, I also cannot say it's absolutely harming the horse. I see potential for it to go south, if the horse isn't keep on a short cycle, etc. I've expressed my concerns to the Owner, that's all I can do. If she doesn't keep up with the care, then yes I'll consider it harmful and excuse myself. Remember the horse walked off sound, I have not the tenure to say "Oh well it will go south, mark my words"

There is a lot that we do not know about what will be the right shoe for a particular horse. As well as Pat Reilly told me "everything works sometime". I don't mind trial and error and I often frame things when a vet wants to use an approach that I might not use along the lines of "Great lets try that but if he does not like it I'd like to go here next." That way if the horse is happy great. If he is not then we can try my approach. If neither work than the vet and I will put our heads togeather and try some third approach.

But when your feel something really detrimental to the horse is suggested than do walk away.

and they tell two friends and they tell two friends . . . you don't want to be stuck working for people like this for very long. They are always looking for a compromise - somebody to push around, extend the cycle a few weeks, hold the check till payday.

In the business sense it already went south. The owner already knows from previous experience that she can get you to compromise. She has you over a barrel.

In general most are within a two week period of the horses due date. I'm not going to let them go for that. I do charge extra if it goes over a month, that's kept the worst ones from constantly pushing it. You have to remember I don't have a full work load, so while I'm trying to set myself apart and not just do anything....... I still have to make some concessions.

Well this compromise is more of "working with her Vet".

Kim, I can understand where you're coming from.

I'm pretty sure we all had to put up with a lot of crap and shoe a lot of orangutans when we started out. Just keep the advice you're getting in the back of your mind for future reference, when you do have a thriving practice.

The other thing you have to remember is that you're building your reputation now, every day, and it will stick with you for a long time, and make it harder or easier to build your practice.

I was given some good advice ( which I didn't take ) when I started out. "Decide where you want to live, then go work somewhere else for a couple years, and make your mistakes there." If I could have done this, I think things would have been much easier starting out.

At this point in your career, I know it's really hard to say no, and you need to get under a lot of horses, but my point in all this is that although it's not easy, you might be better long term to consider walking away, politely, sometimes, than getting involved in a situation you're not comfortable with, or with an owner/vet you really don't need, even though you may think you do. Stick with it as long as you think there is reasonable hope of a good outcome, but if you start having doubts, get out before things start down hill, 'cause then it will be too late. If the owner is questioning your judgement, it may already be too late.

It's better to build a good business slowly, than a bad business quickly. I think it's easier long term to build a good customer list than it is to turn a bad business around. It took me about 2 years to get to the point where I could actually make a living as a farrier.

Best of luck to you.

Regards

I took the advice of the gang on the old text based horseshoes.com in 1999-2000 (many who are here now on this forum) when I was researching starting out and although I could not do the move away then move back 5 years later concept that rick spoke of I implemented all the other suggestions which were...

1.) Go to school for as long as you can afford
2.) Find lots of farriers to help for free
3.) Set your price in the top third of the farriers in your area. Don't be the cheap farrier
4.) Walk away from bad customers and bad horses build the business slowly

My own idea to allow number 4 to happen was to work 3 part time jobs slowly quitting them as my business built up over a 5 year period. That gave me the ability to not take on bad horses and bad customers.

I do have a part time job still, and I've passed on a few customers already. Walked away from some bad horses. I'm mid range I guess, under the top farriers in the area but well ahead of the weekend beer money guys.

I am taking to heart all the advice I'm getting and it's certainly helped thus far. So a big thanks to all who take the time to mentor me on here.

What George said, but I have to add that if you are NOT a Horseman in the first place like alot of people that get into this business it will be a Hard road..I know so many hoofcare providers that dont ride or know how a horse is supposed to move in alot of disciplines..??They shoe everything the same and dont grasp the depth of this business at all??? JMO.

Gary kim used to be a mounted policewoman and I assume is a good horsewoman. I have not met many who can ride a horse into a mob of rioters who were not LOL. Most of us are still working on getting our horses OK with plastic bags blowing by.

I don't want my horses to be OK with plastic bags blowing by. I expect them to catch the bags and put them in the trash.

I wasn't going to comment in case he was just speaking in general. However I certainly don't know the in's and out's of all the disciplines. So I was glad to get the opportunity to start working with a farrier that sets up show Arabians.

I miss busting up fights........... You can't imagine what it's like to ride straight into a group fighting, and scatter 'em like roaches. One of the funniest things was an intoxicated guy trying to push my horse out of his way, I let him try for about a minute I guess then knocked him over.

Oh my Mare "HATED" plastic bags. The one thing I had to work the longest. During Bayfest , one blew up between her legs and she went straight up and almost fell over. I had to let go and landed on my head, sounded like a baseball getting hit when I struck the pavement. I got back on her and finished the shift.

What is it about horses and plastic bags?