what s wrong with the nail holes and shoe shapes

No sorry smitty.took the pick becouse its first set on a new costomer who is blaming the former shoer for the crack.

Thats not your work so ?

Yes my work .first set on this horse

As we are talking about were you should not put nails
why did you put that nail in the crack or very near it?

Going 11 weeks isn't going to help that crack much. How long do you think it will be before you will be the "former farrier".

Regards

Bill, in the past I've had a few "chronic shoe pullers" with crappy walls that I simply opted not to clinch to save hoof wall. Surprisingly they usually don't pull shoes any more frequently, but when they do they always come off clean without getting twisted up. (And they always have clips when I opt not to clinch altogether.)

I got fired for it once. Lady didn't believe me when I said it was intentional to prevent breakage. She said that it was why they kept coming off in the first place. Never mind the fact the horse was base narrow behind and pigeon tied up front and had a jockey with all the grace of a mudskipper.

I wish I had a shod, short footed horse showing laminar tearing with otherwise healthy feet so I could stop using toe nails on them to test this theory. However, I really don't seem to have those same issues. Certainly not on anything being shod at 4 week intervals. (I only have one horse that's shod more often than every 6 weeks.)

I'm very interested in exactly how new holes were created. That 75% of returning horses with loose shoes seems to correlate with the percentage of horses wearing aluminum. As most of us should know, aluminum takes as much as 2 weeks after being heated to forging temperatures before it attains its full hardness again. If he was punching shoes at the horse it's possible there is an unaccounted tempering issue causing nail holes to fail and clinches to rise.

Color me skeptical.

If I understand what you're saying, you're talking about shear force/resistance. I can acknowledge that there is most likely a difference in shear force resistance dependent on the direction said force is applied, however I highly doubt the difference is significant. I rarely have nails shear within a 6 week cycle, but when they do its usually due to rotational force (Ie while turning/spinning on the effected limb) which would put said force directly across the narrow side, theoretically stronger, side of the nails. In any case, wherever shear force is a concern I'm much less concerned about orientation and much more interested in clip placement.

That said, the basic idea shared in the article was that using a toe nail forward of a certain point had deleterious effects to the capsule regardless of shoe fit/placement.

I never read the article - rather I discussed Martin's theory with him on the phone. He told me that he felt that that placing nails forward of Duckett's Dot has some influence in creating toe flares. It would be very difficult to test this theory as there are so many variables to isolate - moisture, conformation, length of shoeing cycle, etc. OTOH, most of the text books discourage placing nails behind the widest part of the foot based on the "theory" that it would interfere with hoof expansion. Having tested that theory on thousands of feet, I've concluded that nailing behind the widest part of the foot has no negative consequences.

Thank you, Joey! Unfortunately I can not open Martin's article by the use of internet. I think the couse of creating toe flares is not in nails but in hardness of a steel shoe and placticity of the foot.

Tom, Just got to the puter and read your post. I too have found no ill effects from having nails further back, and have noticed that feet tend not to flair and distort, when leaving the toe nails out. I've also noticed that distorted feet (on new horses in my care) are much easier to bring back to a proper shape. Now I didn't discover that not using toe nails did all this, I just quit using them five or so years ago, then reading Martin Kenny's study made me put two and two together. I didn't realize that not using toe nails had such a good effect, I just thought I was getting really damn good at this.
Tom, what really shocked me from your post, is that while you were writing it (per the time stamp), I was talking on the phone with Martin. No shit, just a weird world.

Bill you would be surprised what you can do with one good trim and one poor trim can do to a horse imo
regardless of nails

floating it smitty .with this one we would be better off if it split all the way.its a old crack that healed out of alinment . Rick .eqplained to him that it was not former mans falt and that shorter cycles would be more appropreit but you know people .

Smitty, did you read Martin's study?

Mikel I havent, its just in the 40 years I have been doing it I cant say it hindered the feet I have been shoeing.

I agree 100% John. It probably won't hurt or help where a nail goes on a poor trim, shape, and fit. Check out the study. the only difference was nail placement on 80 horses. no other changes.

I will put up the next couple of shoeings and see if
it improves

It might provide some interesting reading on an afternoon with a cup of coffee. Give it a go.

Band wagons. Got to love them every body on, pay no heed to the monkey holding the rains. Guy wrights a article witch IMO is a thesis on how he can make the same mistake over and over agen with nearly the same results and every one starts moving there nails back . There is nothing wrong with 99.5% of the nail holes or shape of keg shoes IME . I have hammer anvil and forge and have only met one shoe that i have not found more then one use for. Come on guys your only ligitimizing the hole nails are bad factions statements when any one who has ever pulled a shoe can see that you could not stack enough nails in the front half of the foot to restrict its movement any discernible amount you need glue and clips for that chit!! THIMK!!

I don't know if I agree with the "bandwagon" analogy, Monty. I quit using toe nails about six years before I heard of Martin Kenny's study. I haven't heard of organizations, certifications, or special hats to ware when not using toe nail holes.
He simply took 80 horses (320 feet) that were sound, performing in multiple disciplines, that were winning, and had not been shod with nails in the toes for a couple of years. He kept the trimming, shape and fit the same, and just moved the nails forward one hole, then documented the results.
From what I get, the theory is that the hoof flexes internally, from the force between the extensor and ddft and the toe nail restricts that flexation, causing flair and cracks in other areas of the foot.