IMHO amateurs do not belong in the farriers section. I believe there's nothing they can offer there but trouble through simple, plain ignorance of the basics and the proceedings of this trade. Whoa now, dear amateur friends, please read on first. You can get angry in the end if you want, there's no hurry. Any questions amateurs may have can easily be asked in the owner's section with a quote or a link to the relevant farriers discussion. Popping up in a farriers thread to ask your own innocent question about the matter can and often does derail the discussion. It is, in a way, very rude. Farriers are trying to help other farriers here. The ones trying to help do focus and guide the thread to the most important direction for that case. Please, do not interfere. Even if farriers themselves start joking around, changing the subject or completely derailing the thread, it is IMHO still no place for amateurs to hop in and contribute their own little bit of whatever. Farriers, as in any other profession, have their own ways about their communication within the trade. There is no way for amateurs to understand it. Please, do not interfere. As for other amateur comments in the farrier section, please understand that they are all irrelevant to the discussion. Please understand that farriers do not post and expose their work here to be voted for or against by amateurs. IMHO amateurs approving or disapproving any professional work or opinion presented here, of any standard, is always irrelevant to the purpose of the thread. Please, don't do that. It is already very difficult for the very experienced masters in here to see and judge and guide with only a few pictures and a paragraph or two of information. Please understand that if it is very difficult for the masters of the trade to see and judge and comment appropriately, it is impossible for an amateur. Please, do not be offended when I say that amateurs do not have, can not have the slightest idea of how to judge farriery. No, it does not mean you are stupid. It is just a very difficult job. People go to school and apprentice for years and years to master it. And after many years under horses they are still learning. Please, my dear amateur friends, do not even think that you can understand even the basics of this profession. You can not. It is not possible. If it was possible for amateurs to understand even the basics of farriery, there wouldn't be so much bad farriery around. They wouldn't pay for it. If it was easy to understand, dedicated professionals wouldn't be going to school for that, it wouldn't take them years and years to master. No, this can not be a place for amateurs to discuss farriery in order to learn and understand it. No internet site or forum can serve that purpose. IMHO it is not possible. It is very difficult even after several years under many horses every day. Yes, you can ask for advice on a given case and discuss the suggestions with your farrier. But no, you can not understand the suggestions themselves or the final decision of your farrier. Please, try to digest that. I know it is not easy.
Christos - I think we are on the same page. But think about this - being able to put something in simple terms is also a sign of mastery. And every day of your professional life - there will be need for you to make things understood. It is rare an "owner" is the source of contention on this site or the other. As I have seen it, the "professionals" back away from this site and others because of unprofessional posts of other farriers. Not so much an owner's comments.
Hmm.....I'll be honest, Mary Ann. No, I do not try to make myself understood to my customers because the very few times I have tried, with good friends, almost family, it failed miserably and cost me not just the contract but also the frienship. Now I am only trying to tell them something they are able to swallow easily, more or less what they want to hear, ie pretty much nothing. I am still doing the best I can for the horse and the customer, but no, trying to explain to them exactly what is happening I do not. I have found that attempting that does not do any good to me, to the horse or the owner. So I will agree with you, making things understood, ie withholding all information that can not be understood, ie keeping your mouth shut, is, indeed, part of mastering the trade.
No, Mary Ann, IMHO absolutely not. The issue in both sites is non farriers attempting to regulate or moderate or otherwise interfere with farrier issues. Farriers arguing in their own ways about their own trade has been going on for many years and it is not what brings the sites down.
Yes indeed. After you've done 6 months of school and learned which way to turn a nail, how to keep from raspin' off your knuckles, the names of all the bones, joints, tendons, ligaments, and their common abbreviations and the vernacular regarding how they're discussed in spatial coordinates, a master should be able to put things in simple terms. It is very easy for my clients to understand. But they don't get in between me and the vet when we're discussing technical stuff. Exactly what is it that qualifies YOU to judge whether or not a post made by a farrier is professional or not? Suppose it was intended as sarcastic humor between two farriers who are friends, and you weren't aware of that relationship? Well there you are all bent out of shape wanting the mods to DO SOMETHING!!! Now, why should the mods have to EXPLAIN this situation to you? If you don't get what I'm talking about, you REALLY REALLY shouldn't be in the farrier section of a farrier forum EVER.
Tom - Read Pat Reilly much?? You infer and in-sin-u-ate. You read into things, you talk at people. ANd you are definitely one I would consider Owner Phobic. One reason to do away with the "owner" section - you won't be so scared and hostile. Let posters be posters and pros be pros.
Christos - I think on the other site, there were many instances where trimmers (da BUA) did interfere with a good exchange of information. But some of the biggest complaints and bannings and people leaving (Jay Perry, Patty) were over farrier slug fests. ANd other farriers did complain that such behavior demeaned them. Simple solution is to close this site to owners. Why invite them here?? None of the farriers posting would want their owners (customers, foot feeders) coming here. Well except mine. We are great friends. ANd he enjoys that I love to learn about my horse and what he does for them. I hope you and other farriers have such relationships with customers as well. We have been friends for a good 10 or more years. But I do not think Ray wants to close the site to owners.
Yes, I can understand that. If that was not the case, ie owners and other amateurs believing certain information to be credible and useful, the BUA issue and horrible farriery would simply not exist. Just what I said earlier. Amateurs have absolutely no chance to understand and judge the trade, to tell good information from absolute garbage. It is sad and frustrating for all, owners and farriers alike, but that's how it is and there's nothing I know that can be done about it. Except may be heavily regulating the trade and all things assosiated with it. But that's a different discussion, isn't it ?
Oh yea. You keep referring to owners as amateurs. Amateur what? Owners own horses. Horses each have 4 feet. But they are not amateurs.
It's not that you don't understand basic hoofcare it's that you don't know enough about basic Farriery to add to a discussion amongst Farriers. It's not the job of forum members to moderate. It's not just about understanding anatomy or mechanics it's also about application which you know nothing about. Horseshoeing isn't strictly about Science, if it was then you could read a book and be a Farrier. How long does it take to master Farriery? A Farrier forum is not a place for horse owners to receive one on one teaching from Farriers. Read all you want and learn all you want. You thinking you can jump in the middle of a Farrier coversation is degrading to the Farrier profession.[/QUOTE]
No, it is not. IMHO it is unfair to the horse to assume that any non-farrier can comprehend, judge or apply even the basics of hoof care. No, they do not. They can not even see the detail required for the very basics. It is very very hard.
I have no problem with letting the forum have an informal setting like a pub. But that doesn't make it a professional forum and for damn sure it doesn't deserve the level of over-site that a professional forum should have. The word professional implies exclusivity. So a professional forum must by definition exclude non-professionals from participating. I'm perfectly happy to be the bar bouncer. I've done the job before. Basically there isn't much to do unless somebody breaks the law - which usually involves a fist fight, property damage, and bodily injury. Since you can't really pack much of a punch into an Internet Transport Protocol and there isn't very much that somebody can say on the internet in a forum that would cause any real material harm, there's a lot of leeway on freedom of expression. This forum doesn't exclude anyone from any participation in any part of it. Most of the non-professionals that participate here seem to be more concerned about how to pick up a turd from the clean end than anything else. The entertainment value of that scenario is what gives this place its charm.
How about just having this site for farriers only to post, there is horseshoes.com with an extensive horse owner section should owners want to learn and ask questions. I have absolutley NO problem with owners wanting to learn and ask questions but it would seem the majority on here do not want that. Time to get the ban button out here and there too now along with asteriks for all the cursing. I will refrain from posting here until it is sorted and the americans stop falling out.
Um, you're the one that recruited her for that job and gave her the keys to the company car. I told you to buy a damned hair brush.
I don't remember having these problems when I was running it. Oh that's right I actually administered the website instead of just having a free for all.
That was my initial plan. Allow a horse owner to ask a question from time to time. Not to actually allow horse owners to get in the middle of Farrier discussions. It takes a good amount of moderating to set the tone for something like that and moderating is not part of this forum.
Yea you administered the forum till the Australian Mafia ran you off the Internet. Then you struck a deal with Ray, who is Irish and isn't afraid of the Aussies . . . or nurses 'cause he's married to a nurse.
I mod on another forum of an unrelated, but sometimes equally contentious field. There is a written code of conduct members are expected to adhere to and is the means by which smack-downs are delivered... all nice and clean and clear. The admin also has a system of reminders and infraction points. Anyone goes over 20 points and they are automatically barred. Real meatheads are just banned outright. As suggested above, there is a general topics area where there is a bit more leaway given when people are debating something, but clear breaches of the COC are dealt with. Mostly a reminder of the COC is delivered via PM, if that ignored, the points start mounting.
I think that if you want to comment on threads or give advice you should post pics of your work first . Put up or shut up ! The "Jerry Springer" show needs to go and get back to shoeing horses. I like coming here to see other farriers work and some of the guys on here do put out some damn good work . This site has helped me become a better farrier and I'm thankful for that !
