WWYD- Farrier Disagrees with Vet's Rx

The Oz qual isn't worth a cracker mate. I've got the same qual too. Basic.

It's what you learn/do afterwards that is important.

Pat's been around fora for a while... long enough to track what he does. I think you're being a bit hard on him FWIW... especially seeing as we still haven't seen any of your work.

Just my $0.02

Yes mate. I have the same qual. My rego number is 19709 if you want to check it out.

There is only one qual in Victoria/Oz - Certificate (III) of Farriery. Any half arsed muppet can do the level III cert.

Col Smith is a good man, but I'd bet my arse he would like to go further with the qualification.

Jack,

You and I have gone round on this kind of thing for years across many boards (Horseshoes.com, COTH etc.) Most of those you got banned from due to going on line after drinking too much and honestly becoming abusive. I support your right to diasagree with anybody. Hell my friend Pat Reilly and I don't agree all the time but we have productive discussions about our differences. How about you rachet it down a bit and focus on the actual discussion and avoid the personal attacks?

I feel under it all you are an OK guy but honestly I am so tired of the drunken rants.

I suppose I could post pictures of a horse with a diagnosis and ask Jack to describe the "correct" method of trimming and shoeing, but we all know how that would turn out.....excuses, insults and no information. Let's pretend we had that discussion and move on...


Tom, how about an example of a shoeing suggestion from a vet which you think is detrimental to the horse which you would not apply?

Jack, how much would you charge me to make me a first class hammer handle? I know now why you don't want to show much of your work? Why bother? You are so much better than anybody else all you would do is just be bragging~

As far as being mean to pat,remember Pat shoes lame horses and there is a big difference...............

Pat, I already gave two examples from my experience where the horse was permanently messed up.

1. A horse that got a superior check ligament desmotomy. In order to get the pastern to drop, the heels should be elevated or just left alone. The vet ordered that the heels be trimmed to blood. Following this order completely negated the surgery.
2. A horse diagnosed over the phone with a hind suspensory sprain. The vet ordered 1/2" heel wedges. No radiographs, not history, no hands-on examination. I refused to follow the vet's prescription. The next farrier followed the vets orders. Not long after that the suspensory ruptured and ended the horse's riding career.

Both situations involved bad mechanics in reverse of what (IMO) any farrier would consider appropriate farriery for the situation. Same vet in both situations. As a business policy, I don't work for clients that use that vet. Neither do a lot of other farriers I know.

he's right; and the shoe doesn't fit the horse correctly and is turnt [sp] to one side and not supporting the heels; making the lat exten useless. and also he has the heel chasing the toe creating a long heeled effect. putting pressure on the hocks, stifles, and jacks.
I am correct, jac-mac?

OK I'm glad you are sober now. Thats not an easy thing to do and you are to be commended for that.

I'd almost prefer the answer that its just the drink talking as that would provide a reason for your responding to my reasoned apply for civility with personal attacks on Pat and I. If you can't disagree and discuss your views in a civil manner I feel you have no place in this forum. We are really trying (despite the moderators refusal to moderate - or perhaps they are drunk and unable to operate the moderator privileges of the software) to make this a nice place for farriers and horseowners to discuss hoofcare. Could you please at least try and act like a reasonable member of the hoofcare community. Again I support you right to offer your positions on things. But why not be nice?

The following error occurred:

Internal Server Error

The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was unable to complete your request.
Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@farriersforum.com and inform them of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may have caused the error.
More information about this error may be available in the server error log.

So we agree on the cert then?

As far as your apprenticeship, I would certainly hope you learned more than the level III cert. Good for you, so did we all. Just wish you had the cajones to match your mouth and show us the superiority of your work.

As far as the harness horses, I've done sport horses and gallopers all my life, I don't see the shame in asking advice on a style of shoeing I've never done before. I'd ask advice for reining horses too, never done them either.

*First off you have to know what a healthy correctly shaped hoof looks like in the first place .

*If you want farriers to be the expert in the area of horses feet, we need to start behaving like the expert we would like to be.
*What's the big difference in shoeing lame horses

(((((((****You and I have gone round on this kind of thing for years across many bo (George Spears))))))

*Its very simple!!!!!Produce good work as a farrier , keep horses sound & you wont have to refer to your self as an expert. Others will call you that.

*behaving like the expert we would like to be
*Yes the medial heel on that shoe is to long. If the medial heel of the shoe was a little shorter then the toe of the shoe would be in the right place & not off centre to the frog . How did you come up with you're the first person I've heard of fitting shoes starting at the heel. From me saying the medial heels to long ? & what does this racked mean ?
*******************************************
These are statements and opinions without all the extraneous material.
As George pointed out going round with someone for years, as most of you do-would anyone go round with someone for years if their opinions weren't worth thinking about at all?

Yes. Afterall there is the entertainment/amusement/disbelief factor................')

hang on a minute all you smartasses , the medial heel is not too long , look again before making such stupid comments , it is the lateral heel that is too short at this moment in time , and that could be for several reasons , a quick observation shows the outside is high , but it has been shod a while , stick to sheep shagging prof Jerk coz your no chuffin good at picking up anything else

Well, Dad always taught me to look for the real meaning of what people say........sometimes I can spend years trying to figure out the meaning, sometimes a "puzzle" is worth years of trying to figure out.

Karen we go round and round with him for a while every couple of years till he gets banned from all the horse boards. Then he comes back in the guise of his twin brother, then he comes back as other trolls. As far as I know this is the only forum that will tolerate his misconduct on a regular basis with no moderation. Even with purposeful moderation and periodic banning you just cant avoid this guy. With a policy of "ALL TROLLS .... WELCOME ABOARD" I feel it necessary to do a direct appeal to him to be civil. My doing that does not make his opinions worth thinking about. Actually he never offers opinions on how to shoe a horse rather just attacks everybody else as wrong.

oops i posted on the wrong thread

There was one horse owner who was looking for information on this site recently who received poor information regarding the efficacy of a treatment. I did not respond and that animal is now deceased. I am upset with myself for not pointing out the flaws in the post. That is why I post here, in spite of the insults directed personally or at my skill. I post because I believe it matters.

Tom,
I looked for evidence in literature for post superior check ligament desmotomy management of the foot, but I was unable to find any references. I am not saying I am disagreeing with your approach, just that I cannot find evidence to support the position.

Thankyou, George and Rick, and George. I appreciate that your replies reflect the fact that I'm Not posting this to take sides, because I'm not.

How does one differentiate between one person's anger vs another? Are the triggers similar?

Pat, One of the first things I noticed here when I listened to what all you farriers say, was the concern and passion for how a horse is treated, and not only hooves. I've seen an awful lot of anger - most of the anger being triggered by the inhumane treatment or harm of horses. Not which nails to use.

I see you're upset, and most here absolutely hear you. And hindsight is always 20/20. It was very sad.

Pat, I think you are aware of the mechanics of the inverse relationship between hoof angle and pastern angle and the role that the deep flexor and superficial flexor tendons and their associated check ligaments play in that relationship. I also think you are aware of the difference between a how a hoof is managed after surgery for a flexural deformity involving P3 (club foot) vs. a flexural deformity involving the pastern being vertical while the hoof and P3 remain broken back. (which was the case with this particular horse)

If not then I suggest you do as I did and consult with several veterinarians who have successfully treated this particular deformity (shortened superficial muscle/tendon unit) and see what they have to say about it. The ones I've discussed it with have all agreed that the hoof was managed exactly the opposite of what the mechanics required. It is certainly a lot less common than a club foot, but not so uncommon that you should have to look far to find a vet who has treated it and understands the mechanical requirements that promote a successful outcome.