Laminitis ????? About founder

Discussion in 'Farrier Advice For Horses With Lameness Issues' started by Karen Fletcher, Apr 7, 2012.

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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    A horse at my barn foundered. He's not overweight, overridden, not on lush grass , diet is mostly hay and not much grain. Gets a trim every 6 weeks. Nothing has changed in his care .

    Are there other reasons why a horse founders?

    The vet said 8% on one foot and 15% on the other. The farrier said he's coming on Monday. I thought founder was something you want to get treatment on asap?
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    Kim Turner Master of my own domain

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    Is the horse on Stryofoam for now? It makes a difference in an acute case, that I've seen first hand.
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    Eric Russell Active Member

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    In my area whoever gets there first generally gets something on the horses feet be it the Vet or Farrier. What did the Vet do?
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    Tom Bloomer Well-Known Member

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    I bet the "treatment" involved a lot of bute . . . :rolleyes:
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    Thomas Opinionated and I know it

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    The horse doesn't have to be overweight... though being overweight helps!

    And you can get a horse laminitic on a diet of hay only. That's why it's recommended that owners of horses with likes of insulin resistence and cushings soak hay. It's vital to ensure a forage diet low in water soluble carbohydrates (WSC) and sugars.

    Undigested carbohydrates and excess starch in the diet can lead to high acidity in the hindgut, which can give rise to a wide range of effects, from reduced B vitamin formation in the hindgut to the onset of laminitis.

    High acidity in the hindgut upsets the delicate bacterial balance, causing the beneficial bacteria to die off which, in turn, releases endotoxins (the toxic remains of dead bacteria) that pass through the gut wall and into the bloodstream. In some horses this can trigger changes to the circulation in the feet, while in others it affects metabolism.

    Regrettably horses have an 'overengineered' digestive system which seems to have been designed by a committee! And there's clinical evidence that these amines are found in high concentrations in the caecum of the horse, particularly those on lush spring/summer grass. The amines released from the caecum may cause vasospasm in the digit and therefore these compounds can trigger vascular changes in the foot leading to acute laminitis (and that's why its so important to restrict grazing) and to ensure that hay isn't too rich in sugar. This time of the year can be the worst in terms of grass though. As new grass comes through and there's frosty mornings it's REALLY rich in sugar.

    You said "not much grain".... it's not about quantity. It's about what the nutritional components are in relation to the metabolism of the horse.

    I've recently been to a clinic to present some findings re the link between laminitis and metabolic conditions and basically saying that a huge %age of horses with laminitis had underlying metabolic issues. However it seemed that this was one of those "so what's the root cause then" debates. A bit like type 2 diabetes and metabolic conditions in people where inappropriate junk food diet, lack of exercise and obesity can seriously mess things up, that forgetting a horse is a roaming forage feeder and feeding it thwacking meals whilst it's doing nothing is all it takes to make a horse as unhealthy as a significant proportion of the human population is becoming.

    Other reasons though:

    cushings disease
    grass sickness
    other serious illness - things like massive insult on immune system e.g. if a mare has a retained placenta. What happens is that endotoxins are produced in the gastrointestinal tract. These are absorbed into the circulatory system and ultimately affect peripheral circulation. Circulatory disturbances of the laminar then result in poor attachment of the horn to the pedal bone and poor horn production. Same in cattle and as in horses, chronic problems can also lead to dropping of the pedal bone and such as toe ulcers and abscesses.
    uneven loading (mechanical founder) - might be because of poor conformation or poor trimming/shoeing or even injury which causes uneven weight bearing
    excessive concussive forces or stress induced (road founder)
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    Yea Tom, your treatment is the one they are using!
    I think I'll print this out for them, the Mrs. likes to acquire information. Eric, Kim , there's nothing on his feet except a nice really soft stall.
    Thomas, thanks for the education! I knew there was alot more to founder than I knew.
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    dana fenn It's complicated . . . .

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    Did the farrier make it out yesterday, Karen? do you know what they ended up doing with him?
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    I haven't been out there yet. Maybe tomorrow. I'm curious too! But I work 12 hour nights, so today is my brain dead day!
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    dana fenn It's complicated . . . .

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    Ekk! Twelve hour nights? i'd be incoherent . . . . would be curious too to know if they've changed his diet or are soaking his hay. My DragonQueen is insulin resistant.
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    jack mac Guest

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    What Type of hay ? & Is the hay fresh or last seasons & possible musty?. Had they wormed him a few days earlier & If so could you find out what the active constituent was in the wormer ? It's vital to ensure a forage diet low in water soluble carbohydrates (WSC) and sugars.Care to be a little more specific - explanatory Thomas & could you suggest what type of carbohydrates your referring to Thomas ?.
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    George Spear Member

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    Karen one of the emergency procedures that follows from the WSC issue is soaking the hay in water for 45 minutes then pouring off the water (and the WSC with it) before feeding. For some horses soaked/drained hay becomes part of their maintenance program to prevent further flare ups.
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    Steve Marshall Member

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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    It's not a horse owned by anyone I know. However, I find out that the horse has had stuff going on for a while. I'll have to ask again what they think happened , now that it's been 2 months later. The age may be important too (?)
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    Thanks, George. I'll find out if it's insulin related. And what they are doing now.

    Jack, I think he's on pasture half a day, (not lush), and a roll of free choice hay in the pasture. In his stall he gets a small amount of grain and a few slabs of hay, which is, I think, Tifton, basic hay around here. I'll see what the owner says about it.

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