If P3 "remodels, does that mean it goes back to where it should be? Does the laminitic coffin bone ever go back to where it should be? If a horse is trimmed unbalanced, like medial/lateral or toe/heel, does the coffin bone try to correct itself in the unbalanced hoof? Or stay unbalanced until the hoof is trimmed correctly? If the coffin bone is unbalanced due to an unbalanced trim, what happens to functional sole? Layman's terms please-I didn't go to farrier school. Debates are welcome.
Where should it be? Coffin bones don't become 'laminitic', per se. It cannot correct itself though it can remodel. Even then, that doesn't mean that it is then 'balanced'. It depends. First you have to define balance, then define balanced, then decide if remodeling if it occurs is putting the bone into unbalanced balance. It depends. How long does the unbalanced trim last? Is there p3 remodeling? .
Karen Fletcher said:? If P3 "remodels, does that mean it goes back to where it should be?Where should it be? Where it's supposed to be - Does the laminitic coffin bone ever go back to where it should be?Coffin bones don't become 'laminitic', per se. Well, no kidding. LOL. Do coffin bones that have changed position due to laminitis go back to where they were before the laminitis? If a horse is trimmed unbalanced, like medial/lateral or toe/heel, does the coffin bone try to correct itself in the unbalanced hoof?It cannot correct itself though it can remodel. Even then, that doesn't mean that it is then 'balanced'. What's the difference between remodel or correct itself? Or stay unbalanced until the hoof is trimmed correctly?It depends. First you have to define balance, then define balanced, then decide if remodeling if it occurs is putting the bone into unbalanced balance. Can you define balance as you would use it? I mean it to be that the coffin bone is ground parallel, except the heels are a few degrees higher-just like in perfect xrays., and p1 p2 and p3 line up like they should. If the coffin bone is unbalanced due to an unbalanced trim, what happens to functional sole?It depends. How long does the unbalanced trim last? Is there p3 remodeling? I have to think about how to reword this so I know what I'm asking! Thanks, Rick. I'm thoroughly confused now, LOL
The Pedal Bone sits within the front half of the hoof capsule and articulates with the short pastern bone and navicular bone. With laminitis, the support of P3 can be compromised which results in it moving relative to the hoof. The structure/density of bone can be changed by what happens to it and by the likes of laying collegen and calcium based substances and in effect which actually produces bone. "Bone remodelling" is when the bone adapts to vari0us influences. Think of it as a continual process of being broken down and reformed. Bone adapts itself to a variety of influences. They can remodel generally and so affecting the whole bone, or the whole skeleton; or they can remodel in a very specific fashion in response to a influence such as the way the foot is trimmed or shod and including any thereapeutic shoeing or exercise regime which in turn affects bone remodelling.
Where it belongs or, home, in bed by 9...... Remodel does not = 'go back to where it should be' Remodel refers to a change in physical characteristics, not "location". Absent disinterdigitation of the laminae, why would the coffin bone change positions/spatial orientation in the first place? Remodel= a change in one or more aspects of its original form and/or structure aka: morphology. 'Correct itself' = change in spatial orientation in one or more planes whether or not it, of its own volition, puts on a dunce cap and sits in the corner . It Depends........ If the heels are higher then p3 is not ground parallel, at least in the dorso-palmer/A-P plane. However, it may still be parallel with the horizon in the medio-lateral plane which, absent conformation challenges or pathology, is where I try to keep its orientation. Phalangeal alignment both along their long axes and medio-laterally , absent conformation/pathology challenges, is also something for which I strive. Unfortunately, that ideal is not always readily met or even if met, retained over the trimming/shoeing cycle. Remember that whenever "It Depends" is a factor/player, there is not going to be an easy answer, especially when time is a component of the equation. Now we're having fun Happy to oblige.
Karen Remodel means the bone is changing shape it does not mean that it is repairing itself. Imbalance due to human error can occasionally in RARE cases correct it self if the horse is bare footed and the imbalance very is slight. Conformation faults will never correct themselves. I have never seen a coffin bone go back to natural position by itself.(in a foundered horse) However a coffin bone can be manipulated back into position by proper trimming and support the key word here is support for the fact that the bone needs to be held into proper position until it reattaches. Remolding of P3 takes place over a period of time I personally do not know of any cases that one trim (6 weeks) caused P3 to remodel if someone has seen this I would love to look at the case and see the results. The horse is a amazing animal they can with stand all the junk that humans throw at them and sill perform like they enjoy it. Now as for the sole it will jam and compact just like the hoof wall I think that a lot of the imbalance problems start with the sole but that is just me the sole is one of the most over looked structures in the horses hoof in my mind.
It is a fascinating subject, irregular shapes, bone absorption, the most common we see is what I call the ski ramp where the pedal bone appears to have a tip at toe. Interestingly I cant find out from anyone if the tip has been pulled there or the surface above it absorbed, Most vets say a combination of both but its hard to imagine that a bone as solid as P3 can be pulled in shape. John have you read M T Savoldi weight bearing function of the sole.
I just read the M T Savoldi article and it answers alot of what I'd like to know. Thanks, David. Did Savoldi write any other articles? John, thankyou for layman's terms. I agree with you that the sole is important, and is a great guide.
Rick, thankyou for all your replies here. I'm sure they're all correct, but it's going to take me months to decipher it.
Not that I am being contrary but just want to add a personal experience to the this topic - and one of the reasons for my interest in feet. I have seen xrays where the lateral view shoes what might be considered a ski tip or lip on the rim of the coffin bone. But on the same foot, the dorsal/palmer (xray plate on the bottom of the foot) shows a devastating loss of the front of the coffin bone. Like someone took a bite out of a cookie. I think the question I would want to add is this: when lamellar attachement is lost, and the coffin bone is out of place - the effort is to use support from the bottom put the foot in as close a position to "normal" as possible. The hope is the lamellar attachements at the coronet which are presumed "normal" will grow down tight again and without separation or stretching or lamellar wedge. My question is does this ever really happen? Is it only acheived in the milder -caught-quickly laminitis cases? What is the window of opportunity to get it tight and not have ongoing lamellar wedging issues?
There is no inconsistency there. You can prove this yourself by using your 'cookie' test. Take a bite out of the cookie. Now, look at it as though it was a lateral view radiograph. What do you see? Now look at it either from the top down or the bottom up. What do you see? Nature works on its own timetable/schedule. So the only factual answer to any/all of the questions is, It Depends.
On the ski tips, I have seen cadaver coffin bones where the very rim of it was lipped up - but the bone was intact. My guess is this is a "ski tip" or early on remodeling/degradation. But I have seen Xrays where it looked like a "ski tip" till the dorsal palmer view was taken. The it was clear there just was no bone there - what looked like a "ski tip" was just the ghost of the degradated bone. What I got from the experience was the lateral view will not be all that accurate for demonstrating integrity of bone. The cookie example was good to use. ANd the loss of bone explained the pointiness of the toe as it grew.
Rick, I've read your replies about 25 times now, and I think I'm starting to get it! Now all I have to do is figure out what MaryAnn is saying!!!
It is also important to understand that [any/all] bone can/will remodel/change/adapt from changes in the pressure or stresses applied to it. In the case of a ski tip forming on the distal leading edge of p3, consider the thinness of the bone at that point and the pressure being applied to it from both above and below when its orientation is incorrect and the forces are re-dircted/increased to that edge. Over time, the bone has no choice but to adapt. Sometimes that adaption is in the form of a physical change such as is seen with a ski tip forming on the edge of p3. Other times there is new bone laid down such as in the instance of ringbone or other forms of DJD. Other times, the adaption is a loss of bone such as occurs with pedal osteitis. Sometimes these adaptations occur in concert.
A 'ski tip' is, ipso facto, remodeling............ Before just now, I had no idea that 'ghosts' were radio-opaque........... As with most things, It Depends..... Its why multiple views/exposures are necessary to establish a complete picture. Of course, that depends on what you are looking for......... Why? Is it possible that the damage to the distal leading edge of p3 would be adequately represented by changes in the morphology of the white line in that area? IOW, why would bone loss explain the 'pointiness'(sic) of the toe as it grew?
I will let Rick keep typing cos he does it much better than I do The ski tip is something that fascinates me, and these are my observations, on an open flat foot that has a dorsal flare at the distal third of the capsule that you have to expose the white line to correct but appears to be normal in the proximal 2/3 rds probably has it. some upright feet that the capsule has rotated round can have it. some flat soles where the sole is compressed may have it. Not all ski tips have cookie bites so its not an optical illusion. But i can be sure that there is an inflamatory link to the dorsal surface of the bone that erodes the bone as much as the tip is pulled or grows. Rick did you get my email? Karen, Salvodi's paper is the key to the biomech consequences of capsule distortion. I quite often refer to it.
David, I can't say who explains it better; All explain something in different ways, some explain things simply and direct. Some go the 'every little detail' way, the mechanics, etc. Sometimes a person needs simple explanation first before they understand a not so simple one. I can say , tho, Rick really makes stop and think about every sentence he writes, which is good! It's all good. David, I gotta read that paper once or twice more and think out the points he's making. So far I like what he's saying.
