What does the collective feel about the use of the "T Bar" as an aid for checking hoof balance, medial lateral if any one is any doubt .
What I,m after is some dialog as to what people recon is right or as I suspect what people think is wrong with it.
Joints don't open and close in a straight line. A good example is club and/or upright feet, the more upright the coffin bone is the more the medial heel rolls under in most cases. So when you hold the leg to t square it the joint would have to be at a precise position for it to work (assuming everything else is also lined up).
Dont get me wrong I dont use 0ne but every now and again people with a bit of clout insist on the results of them. Eric Im not sure I understand about joints in a straight line, a ginglemus joint once under load can only travel in one direction. That has to be the direction of travel.
Personally, I listen to everybody and anybody but I digest what they say and break it down. I know a lot of people with clout that say all sorts of things that make no sense and people with no clout that say some really knowledgeable things. For the joints - should I say the condyles aren't perpendicular to the leg?
I would theorise that they have to become perpendicular through leg placement to travel in a straight line. That then becomes your unequal capsule loading. I have very few friends in clout category, I seem to rub them up the wrong way, imagine!!. My son got marked down for not knocking the outside down more than he wanted to, when he asked me to explain my anti the Tbar I was struggling to articulate it, that is the point of my thread.
I would agree with your theory. I'm only thinking coffin joint. I'm not sure I agree with the coffin joint needing to be perpendicular. I believe Dave Duckett has said p3 is toed in on most horses he's seen. (actually I believe the quote was every horse he's seen but I wasn't there to hear it first hand) It seems to make sense since the quarters aren't directly across from each other. It wouldn't be very efficient for the horse to try to roll over the center of his toe. I will have to think about the elbow abducting. My first thought would be that the elbow abducting would be dynamic and I don't believe foot shape is determined by movement. The elbow abduction doesn't account for a very large percentage of horses who aren't club footed which also break over laterally. My obseravtions are when the coffin joint is flexed the foot toes in upright horses have the medial heel roll under and low heel horses crush the lateral heel more. Most front feet breakover laterally
The T Bar tool is the best method for aligning horses feet, as long as those feet were installed correctly at the factory. Far too many horses seem to have been assembled by non-union labor or by the night shift on a Friday.
my favorite thing to do when ask by a client /Vet to correct or fix this horse; is to gaze sky ward, make the sign of the cross and say "God, you really messsed up when You created this one, but don't worry I got Your back"
David do you remember years back when Martin passed his fwcf , released the book and Mac was just starting mfc ? this was when the wcf and the frc really pushed the use of the tbar it was almost as though they had reinvented it . your mentor stood up for us all and pointed out that if you did trim to it very shortly the foot would relax and end up where it wants to be , something a lot of us noticed anyway . one thing for sure is that you should not start appling tbar protocol on established working horses without seriously good reason and good insurance . i feel for your son i know how some of the examiners mark and see things , i think its a lot like the driving test , by the "book " for exams , correctly for the individual horse at work
You are getting the picture perfectly Chris. Mark personally Trims an even amount off most hosres heel to heel and the hoof adjusts then radius's the toe, that is how Alex and I work like this and we have very few lame ones. Eric the last paper I read was 80percent toein. It is my observation that the abducting and aducting at the elbow is part of the dynamic of every stride on every leg. It is part of the way the horse moves its center of mass as it breaks over with the hoof held by friction at the load bearing phase of the stance. The ginlemus joint will have a little medial lateral movement under flexion. The wear on the lateral toe of the shoe indicates th center of the joint.
David, Your inquiry regarding the "collective" is appropriate. The T-Square was "out of fashion" when I started out a decade ago. However, I have several magazine articles where it was brought back into popularity by the likes of Billy Cruthers and other "famous" folks. It wasn't used in the school I went to, but now it is required in their tool list, as well as several other schools. Like most stupidtitions in farriery, advocates of the T-Square cannot make an intelligent scientific case supporting its use. It is carpentry, not farriery. But if you challenge the advocates, they will get very upset because your challenging their "authority."
I have one in my tools box.Many times,when the horse is "good fabricated", I put the T after my trim and I can found perhaps 1 or 2 mm difference whit my eyes. If the horse has problem of conformation,I dont use. I prefer my eye an my criterion.
As ever Tom your posts cover my thoughts (except when you are wrong), I nearly gave you a like but you have to many anyway. My goal would be the intelligent scientific case rubbishing this tool. Trimming is subjective, we all who have open minds know that, just some of the judges try to quantify there subjectiveness with the absolute of The T Bar. Its biggest advocate is Jim Blurton, not because he thinks its correct but he sells them Chalenging authority has never won me any friends but as some one who wasnt my friend pointed out, it hasnt lost me any any.
David, I was just discussing the condyles with a friend. Duckett has told him the condyles are turned slightly on every horse he has dissected. Thoughts?
