How about this. A vet orders you to drive a nail into the center of a horse's foot. You go right ahead and do it knowing you're going to hit P3 and lame the horse. Do you need to be a lawyer to figure out that following the vets instructions is a stupid idea when it is obvious to you that it's the wrong thing to do? It should be common sense and obvious that "willful negligence" involves deliberately and knowingly doing something you know is wrong. I was just following orders is not a legal defense when you know the orders are unlawful, harmful, inappropriate. Just because somebody with a god complex and a first name that starts with Doctor tells you to do something stupid doesn't mean you are not accountable for the consequences. If you mess up a horse it is on you REGARDLESS of who tells you what to do. Messing up a horse ON PURPOSE is downright stupid, negligent, and under the right circumstances constitutes criminal negligence. You will NEVER see a vet, nurse, MD, or any other licensed medical professional follow the orders of a "superior" if they know it is wrong. Unlike farriers, they have to take classes in professional ethics where this sort of thing is covered in detail.
You are being played for a sucker every time you do something you disagree with. AND you have to stand behind the job, the vet doesn't have ANY accountability. Certs don't mean squat. It is YOUR FINGER ON THE TRIGGER, not the vet's.
When I get a vet script that the owner wants me to follow, I ask them 100 questions to see what the vet did say? There is a really good Vet above the knees BUT the methods he recommends below them are suspect to say the least...I try to explain how I see what we are dealing with and beg them to get the radiographs to me so I can see what he/she sees.. I dont think doing what the vet says or even doing something differant that what he says makes much differance IF you can keep a good repore with the owner..IF I get thrown under the bus, Iwant to at least know that so I can learn from it...The big differance is, say you have 10 clients with the same type problem, 3 go to one vet and he saids do THIS.....then you have 3 that go to a differant vet for same type issue and he saids do THAT, now the other 4 are too cheap to have a vet look so you go on your own.. when the four with the same issues go better and the other 6 are still a mess what does that tell you?? Just food for thought because I think we all go through this all the time???
Jac I have found the ones I enjoy working with are the ones that step you to the side and tell you what they are looking to do and ask how do you think we can go about it...I give input and they give input we go over the pros and cons we talk about the horses history ...we talk about the horses up keep and how well we feel the owner will follow what directions are laid out.. we walk back over to the client and tell them what we think ..THEN we even get the clients opinions and thoughts..those cases always seem to go the best every time...I also find if the owner is made to feel as they are a part of the plan and team and they are just as important as the vet and farrier..and imo the owners is very important ... I remember on H.S when Dr myers said straight up ..plan and simple ..if the farrier will not do as he said he will go to his truck and get his chaps and do it himself.. they are many vets just like his azz...and if they can't do it themself they will find one that will ...its catch 22..
Mr. Bloomer, While I agree that your warning is somewhat merited, I also think it's highly misleading and somewhat faulty. Willful Negligence is defined as "conscious or intentional failure to perform a duty due to negligence." The mere fact that Mr. Reed posted on here would be evidence that 1) he performed the duty and 2) he was not negligent. And, for those who are wondering, yes this thread could be used as evidence to support that defense. I think he would have been in a much less desirable position if he had knowingly NOT performed as the vet prescribed. The truth is, if you do not have a reasonable expectation that the action will be detrimental; sometimes you have to do what you're told even if you don't think it'll help. If anything, he might be somewhat open to a strict liability case but I doubt that would hold up either because he said he doesn't feel like what he did will injure the horse or cause any undue danger. Also, he may be protected by and equine professional protection law like we have in GA. JMO David
Did the branch block out with nerve blocks? Starting at the foot and going up to the origin just below the hock? Horses w/ suspensory issues behind will come off the inside/medial heel with hoof testers. I usually use a straight bar with no "extra support"; in which my experiences, "extra support" angers the hind or front suspensories. Impact and load characteristics are critical... Hind suspensory rehab is a 50/50 yield..........
So do no harm and play along. I get that. A mans gotta eat and sometimes you might have to do a half-assed job on a horse when you know you could do something better - but compromise your principles to make a vet happy. Not a game I play and not a business practice I respect. I put the horse first.
I wouldn't do anything I knew to be harmful to the horse. Having said that, there are many shoeing ideas which are difficult to prove. What is the best manner to address a suspensory issue? I don't think anyone really knows. I know the verdict is still out on navicular and laminitis.... Each situation is different. I used to state my case and see how things played out- the worst that could happen (in the absence of a definitive shoeing procedure was that I (or the vet)) learned something. At best, we both learned something. Nobody has all of the answers. I am fortunate in that I am now in a position where people look to me for answers. Unfortunately, my answers don't work all of the time. I still learn something with every case. I think it is important to establish a good working relationship with each vet. Sometimes this involves giving. Other times it involves dictating. Each case is unique.
Bottom line, you and only you are accountable for what you do to the horse with your own hands. Nobody else can assume the risks and responsibilities for the work you perform - who would want to anyway? IMO, the only exception to that would be in a situation where you are performing a procedure along side the vet, like assisting with surgery, where both the vet and farrier are "operating". In that situation the risk and accountability is shared equally between the vet and farrier because both sets of "hands" are involved. Henry Heymering, RMF wrote on this topic years ago http://www.anvilmag.com/comment/aaepflc.htm Nothing has changed. As a group, we farriers still haven't learned to stick up for ourselves.
Tom I agree with what ur Comming with but imho we are kinda of talking about two very different things... I was ask two diff times to mimic the wedge like is done with what they call healthy stride ..wedge the lat on one side and the medial on the front ... I truly felt at that time the Shoeing ask for was and would be harmful in the long run..I explain my feelings and expected to be replaced but was kept on ... I feel that is the very kind of thing your right on spot with.. although I'm not a fan on a full fit at the toe I know I see many do it for what ever reasons..and I will do it if its the right horse..and what I call the right horse is only what I may think... If one stands for the AFA test he is requested and told to shoe perimeter fit ; no matter what is standing in front of him/ her if you don't you don't pass from what I understand..but let's say although I was not happy with how she wanted the horse shod I truly did not feel the horse was in harm to the point of neglect..let's say this also ...you carry your child to the doctor he gives u some meds and you go to fill the script and the pharmacy says we know of something better to give ur child and they give u that in place of the meds the doc said to use...the kid falls very ill and something bad happens..who ya think is gonna be at fault..on the above case I felt a Morrison roller would have worked great..but my luck I would changed or refused and did what I wanted and horse trip ..fall. or what ever..then I feel I would have my azz handed to me.... Then we got that peskey issue of I got bills and people to feed:..so imo on this case although I felt it was not the best choice for this horse I also did not feel it was so far out of line to second guess the vet and her ideas ...and hell the vet may vet well be right ..I have been wrong before on thinking something would not work.. at that time a battle to pick and to make a stand I feel was not the right time..
Overall, I tend to agree with Tom. If I am 'uncomfortable ' with the vet's Rx I try to discuss it with him/her and if I feel it won't do any harm, I will implement it. That said, I always request that the veterinarian write down his treatment Rx under his letterhead and give me a copy for my files. Its interesting to see how often the vet waffles away when this request is made. If the vet and I cannot come to a mutual understanding regarding the treatment Rx, and if I am very uncomfortable with the Rx, then I feel it is my duty and obligation to recuse myself from the case. As regards the issues of bills to pay and people to feed, the question is, how will you be able to do that if you do what the vet wants, but you don't want to do, and as a result, you are sued? Even if you win the suit you lose because of the money it will take to defend yourself. I suppose that if you carry a large malpractice insurance policy you might be OK. OTOH................
Do no harm and play along is fine. I feel like that's what was done here. However, I agree on compromising your principles and I'm sure most of us here agree with that. I agree with Mr. Burton on this, if I feel like I will be compromised by doing what's asked of me, I'll say no and walk away. I might not have loads of money but I sleep fine. David
Unfortunately, George, the " Yeah, but, I was just following orders" usually doesn't work. And if you, against your better judgement, follow the vet's Rx and it doesn't work, odds are you're gonna get replaced anyway. If you're providing services to horsemen/women, you probably won't lose the whole barn. If you're providing services to horse owners/members of the FBN, all bets are off.........
Well, like my tooth that's "needed" a root canal for 25 years-I have to sign a waiver every time I see a dentist. Have a waiver for the owner to sign, that the work suggested is going againt your better judgement, and may or may not be harmful to the horse. Most people won't as this puts the blame on them and not the farrier. Then decide if you want to continue.
I don't know just because I don't agree with a Shoeing it wrong...hell that aint a Shoeing on thus board that ever been posted that all agreed with ..lol..if I end up getting sued over a perimeter fit every sombeetch that hold a AFA very needs to pickit the court house ...free Travis ..free Travis.. hell I find another job if I find myself in court over that..
"politics" or not; learn your job. "The Way", yes "The Way" has my budget up for the week($800) and year $8K. So I want all interested in "The Way" keep up the good work! " Ba Bam"
Yeah I agree. I don't understand where these guys who claim you can get sued for doing something you don't agree with are getting their ideas.
As I thought, Tom provides no case law, no precedent to cite; merely hysteria. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling", cried Chicken little I heard once, if you are going to be that hysterical about things, you'd better have a uterus, or folks will talk bad about you. What keeps coming to mind is, Exactly what kind of Vets are you guys working with? Are they, that likely to "throw you under the bus" if things go south? All the Vet clinics and the University, I have worked with over the last 40 years, have never demanded anything of me that I thought was unsuitable or dangerous for a horse. It might not be my first course of action but quite often it was worth a shot. In the past, if I disagreed with their Rx, I have stated my concerns, offered my input and have always been able to come up with a solution agreeable to all concerned, myself, the attending Vet, the referral Vet, the insurance company, the trainer and the owner. It has always been a collaboration of efforts and they have all "had my back" when any of the laminitic horses or other cripples took a turn for the worse. If you are that frightened of any Vet, for heavens sake, DON'T WORK WITH THEM! But in reality, I think if you're having "problems" with Vets , you should probably work on your people skills/ you are more of the problem and not part of any solution.
Yes, some of them are. And not just me/the farrier, but anyone they feel is necessary to first and foremost cover their own ass. But that is far different than merely 'following orders'. As noted, not the same situation. Its not a question of fear, rather knowing the enemy and self-preservation. Sometimes there is no compromise possible. Some vets suscribe to the "my way is the only way" school of thought. But you're right, Brian. I pretty much know who those individuals are and I don't get involved with them.
