Question about the apex of the frog being too close to the toe

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Sabina, Feb 27, 2013.

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    Sabina New Member

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    First of all - hello to everyone. I have just joined the forum.
    And I have a question. My thoroughbred gelding (who has by the way low heels and long toes) on the right front leg the apex of the frog is practically at the toe area. The other front leg is normal. Is is a sign of something. I guess that is not good. Please help.
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    ray steele Administrator

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    Hi Sabina,

    thanks for joining and posting your question.

    I m sure that soon,someone will ask you to post a picture of your horses hooves, I say this because I ve seen it asked ,probably 100% of the time, when you do , please post them in the horseowner general discussion area, unless you are a farrier/horseshoer/professional hoofcare provider and I missed that info.

    Thanks, we look forward to providing some opinions and good advice.

    Regards

    Ray
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    david a hall Moderator

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    Hi sabina, could you post a pic of your horses hooves :D
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    dana fenn It's complicated . . . .

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    yep, pictures would be needed of both fronts, please.
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    Sabina New Member

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    Ray I am sorry for posting in the wrong part of the forum. You are right, am not a farrier. Just an owner. Thank you for moving my thread to the right place.

    David a Hall and Dana Fenn, thank you so much for posting. Yes, I will upload the photos now. Let me tell the whole story also.
    I am living in Dubai. The horse is 17 year-old thoroughbred who always had very bad hooves. When I got him 3 years ago the situation with his feet was even worse as he had very dish-like front feet, with no heel whatsoever and very brittle horn. After months on biotin, changing farriers and applying hoof care products, hooves became better but heel issue persisted. One of the farriers tried to use the wedges under the hoof irons, tried bigger shoes, thicker shoes, etc. Anyway by April 2012 the horse was lame even with the shoes and our current farrier suggested to go barefoot. I was very tensed about that because normally when being shod the horse could not stand well on a leg if there were no shoe on it, so i had to put a soft rug so farrier to do the shoeing. Anyway, we took shoes off. I got him Mac hoof boots and he was not that bad at all after 4 weeks without shoes. So,now nearly one year is passed since he is not wearing shoes. And he is more sound than ever. Yes, occasional sensitiveness does happen after trims but we were boots for the first week after trim, then he is fine. Current farrier trims every 5 weeks and we try to make heel grow and file on the toes. The problem is that it is very difficult to get a good farrier here, the one we have is extremely busy as he is good. I was thinking to get to some minimal trimming myself. But this would be the next question. Dear Farriers and Knowledgeable Owners, please have a look at his feet. I would appreciate immensely any advice and opinion. My current worry is that his apex of the frog is too close to the toe area. Is it indicating something wrong? Please please help.

    Attached Files:

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    Kim Turner Master of my own domain

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    This is the new person's work? How long since the last trim?
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    Sabina New Member

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    This is 25 days since last trim. Yes, with this farrier since March 2012.
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    Kim Turner Master of my own domain

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    I see a lot wrong with this, but I'm also a new farrier. I'd have shoes back on him. I will wait for the more experienced to comment. I will say this, the wall should not be above the sole. :(
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    Sabina New Member

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    Please please do share what all you feel is wrong here. I need opinions. As I said a good farrier to get here is next to impossible especially for such cases as my horse. Thank you very much, I appreciate your replies!
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    david a hall Moderator

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    Which continent is your farrier from? I think that you need to fly me over.
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    Sabina New Member

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    My current farrier is French.
    Is the case so bad with my horse hooves? Please tell your opinion.
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    ray steele Administrator

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    gary evans old and slow

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    The frog grows off the frog corium, which cannot move forward in the hoof capsule. The reason the apex of the frog looks near to the hoof wall is because the sole has been retained and the horny frog has grown forward with the retained sole, like in this picture.

    [IMG]

    When the excess sole is removed and the frog trimmed, it will return to its normal location:

    [IMG]

    When the sole is removed, the horse's weight would then be taken on the wall, but the problem you have is that the wall has been removed so the horse is left bearing it's weight on its sole, if you then remove the sole you could make the horse more sensitive.
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    Sabina New Member

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    Gary, thank you very much for such a reply with photos! Yes, comparing the hooves in your photos and the hooves of my horse I can see that mine has very thin walls that are off. In your photos the horse has really strong walls. Current farrier was shortening the toes by rasping from the top side of the hoof. Is that what took the wall off? Also the left untrimmed turned-in heels is right or they should be taken off?
    Sorry for asking you and others many questions, but as I said it is a hard task to find someone to do it or at least to advise here. I must understand it myself - what is write/wrong, at least a bit, with the kind help of this forum to be able to at least guess if the farrier is right or maybe something else should be tried out. This horse has very nice movements but the hooves was a set back and now being barefoot he is sounder than with the shoes.
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    gary evans old and slow

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    Well, your original question was 'is the apex of the frog being close to the hoof wall a sign of a problem?'. It is a sign of a retained sole. Is that a problem? It is a sign of the way the foot has been trimmed. I personally would not trim a hoof in the way that yours has been trimmed, but your farrier may have his reasons for trimming him that way and, by your own admission, the horse is sounder now than he was.
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    Sabina New Member

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    Gary, yes, my question about the apex was answered, thank you very very much! At least this is a relive for me that this is not some issue :)
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    gary evans old and slow

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    Sorry, reading back, I realise that I didn't answer your questions.
    Your farrier has removed the wall by running the rasp around the outside of the hoof where the walls actually look quite thick:

    5 RF close side viewb.jpg

    Also, if you do leave the heels untrimmed, they will turn in. Again, I think there is more heel there than there first appears:

    2 RFb2.jpg

    but it's a bit difficult to tell because the picture has cut off the bulbs of the heels.
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    gary evans old and slow

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    Could you post a picture of the lower limb of the horse, side on with the horse standing square?
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    Sabina New Member

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    Gary, I appreciate your replies! Please see these pics

    Attached Files:

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    chris bunting Well-Known Member

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    isnt Davey Kelly out your way ?

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