Shoe Length

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Susan Holden, May 29, 2012.

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    Christos Axis Member

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    IMHO this also works the other way around in soft footing. I am not familiar with all the theories and have no opinion on them, but the way I understand it, bringing the toe closer will make the lever smaller and allow it to sink more, increasing the angle. Bringing the heel closer will make that lever shorter, allow it to sink deeper and decrease the angle. So my understanding is that in soft footing bringing the toe closer, all other things unchanged, will increase the angle and load the suspensory a bit more. Bringing the heel closer, all other things unchanged, will decrease the angle and load the tendon a bit more.

    Just some thoughts to help with the cases where there's nothing more you can do for the HPA with the horse standing on concrete.
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    Eric Russell Active Member

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    A shoe fit with some length. As apposed to hunter fit.
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    Tom Bloomer Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to throw out some observations I have made on horses I shoe with hi/low syndrome - not club foot, but where there is an upright foot on one side and a low foot that wants to run under on the other. I get this result very consistently, but it was something that happened without me actually trying to achieve it as a goal.
    1. I fit the ground surface of my heels to a plumb line dropped from where the point of the heel buttress exits the coronary band on both feet. I call this point the "Origin of Growth."
    2. I use the distance from Origin of Growth to the place where the lamina of the bars ends on the sole (Duckett's Bridge) as 1/2 of my ground surface base length.
    3. I set the breakover point on my shoe equal distance from the bridge as the distance to the where the heels on my shoe end. If the foot has an acute angle, then I roll or rocker the toe so that the foot surface of the shoe is still supporting the dorsal wall or at least half of the thickness of the dorsal wall at the toe.
    When I setup my base of support as outlined in steps 1,2,3 above these are the results I find consistently.
    1. Despite the low foot being wider and the high foot being narrower, the base length of the shoes is the same.
    2. Measuring with calipers from the hair line at the center of the toe on the dorsal wall to the breakover point on the ground surface of the shoe, despite the low foot having the shoe set back farther than the high foot, I get the same distance. I call this the "effective toe length."
    So it would seem that by accident I get matching base lengths and matching effective toe lengths. What I have not tried to measure is the effective toe angle - hair line to breakover point. But I suspect that this angle will match despite the horse having a difference in HPA between the pair of feet. Note, the plumb line through Duckett's Dot starts in the center of the attachment of the extensor tendon to P3. This point is very close to where the hair line starts at the toe.

    I don't know if it's supposed to be this way, but this is what I get without trying to get it.
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    gary evans old and slow

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    interesting.
    got any pics of a case you describe?
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    travis dupree reed Active Member

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    Tom Bloomer Well-Known Member

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    No. The camera in my cell phone sucks even in good light. I am still waiting till somebody makes a digital camera that works like a real film camera and doesn't cost $25k.

    It would be interesting to take measurements on a large group of hi/low horses and see if they match up with my observation.
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    Eric Russell Active Member

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    It makes perfect sense that you would have to set the low heeled shoe back in order to reach your predefined base length idea.
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    Susan Holden Member

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    Thanks Tom for that description, I can actually understand it with only reading it twice;) My english comprehension is pretty good but sometimes my understanding of anatomy struggles:confused: although its much better than it used to be.

    Travis, that cracks me up. It must be hard sometimes coping with that. I think of that graph about "how much I think I know as a farrier"The same applies to horse ownership. What I think I knew as a teenager and what I know now and still have to learn are vastly different things.
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    Thankyou for the explanation. I don't really "need" this information. But it helps me understand what's being discussed.

    Quote:Karen
    Question. The most weight bearing phase-would that be where the coffin bone is empty?, Thus spreading any pressure to the surrounding sides? end quote.

    This was poorly worded. The coffin bone is shaped like a U with the palmer processes. (Empty space in the middle). I meant to ask based on where the p2 is jointed with p3, how is the weight disipated . But I think you already answered what I wanted to know. Thanks.
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    Kim Turner Master of my own domain

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    But the coffin bone is empty. It is a porous bone with no medullary cavity. :p
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    Susan's quote:
    Eric horse owners may not need to know about COA but it sure doesn't hurt and some of us are kinda interested in knowing;)[/quote

    Travis Reed Quote:
    ...............susan ur a bit diff in yes you may be a horse owner but ur also married to a farrier ..so you knowing coa is bit diff than your normal horse owner ....I could just hear a owner now ..hey are you sure that shoe is coa..or saying this time make sure you fit coa..and the owner not having a clue of the other million things that are needed ..just enough to sound like they have a clue..trust me they are many that would carry on..I got to hear just a week ago all about flairs from a proud horse leaser of whole 3 weeks.and all ready had it all figured out...
    -End Quote

    Travis,
    Shoot, you discovered my reason for wanting to know about coa. :eek: I hate not being able not to tell my farrier how to do his job!.
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    Kim, shhhhhhhhh! We should keep that a secret!
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    Tom Bloomer Well-Known Member

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    So where did you learn that porous means empty? And lacking a cavity to be empty kinda kills that concept.
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    travis dupree reed Active Member

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    Karen ... It may not be the case with you ..but keep in mind not most horse owners cruise hoof sites like you do ..but I run across absent owners that have never picked a foot but can tell me all about how to shoe...recently had a client buy what they called a project horse..that's a joke in its self..but he was thin soles would give to thumb pressure..well she runs off some pics and info for me to look over about this product she found on the web.. she said it was a cage covering the bottom of the foot to protect it...I get the info and pictures and what she has found was a picture of the cloth mesh that you put between the shoe and foot for vet tecs pour in pads...some farrier had post a pic of this before he finished his pour in and she was convinced that it was a cage to protect...trying to explain the ons and outs to owners is a tuff task..it can make you sour at the trade some times
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    Karen Fletcher Active Member

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    Travis, I'm sure you all get your share of "armchair" experts. It would wear thin with me as well. I have read hoof sites for 5 years now, and I guess one thing leads to another, it may start with a hoof problem. I would never tell a farrier how to do his job-if I had to, he would not be the farrier for me.

    I'm still from that old school that believes that you never mess with your good farrier-it would be a shame to lose him/her. That includes paying him/her immediately, having your horse ready, etc. My being a member is for knowledge . Thanks for replying.
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    Kim Turner Master of my own domain

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    Cause its empty in them thar pores.

    Ya got me on the cavity. But I blame that on me being a tweaker.

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